Margarita Simonyan gives Western leaders a bollucking & gives her thoughts on world media.
This happened before the US forced RT to register as an agent of a foreign government in November 2017.
RT's yearly budget is under 100 million USD while US budget for foreign media is over 1 billion. Western countries have specific organisations aimed at "countering Russian disinformation" which is code for spreading anti-Russia propaganda. These organisations budgets run into the hundreds of millions.
(2 votes)
Comments
(Short Spike)
That's a little misleading since RT is funded by the Russian government. It would be like one outlet in the US being funded by the Federal govt. - and we know what happens to journalists that don't agree with policy in Russia. In fact anyone who causes enough waves to get Putin's negative attention. Simonyan is editor in chief at RT and is now the eic at another govt. agency as well.
(Old Spike)
What's part is misleading?
Also, I don't agree with this:
we know what happens to journalists that don't agree with policy in Russia
Criticizing policy in Russia doesn't get you killed.
Most journalists who've been murdered in cases relating to government were investigating organised crime, often at a local level.
There were some journalists who published stuff about the Chechnyan conflict who were killed, most famously, Anna Politkovskaya. Links between her death & the Russian federal govt are just speculation though.
Here's a list if you wanna go over it.
(Short Spike)
The part that compares RT budget with all media companies in the US - RT is one (Government run) agency, so it's one company compared to how many US media companies? And how about some clarification on exactly how those numbers play out? You throw out a billion dollars but don't give a breakdown of that sum. Is it foreign advertising alone?
You only skim the surface of the real reasons journalists are killed - for instance, Anastasia Baburova (from the New Gazette in Russia) - ostensibly killed by Neo nazi zealots but actually involved Russian state security according to a highly respected Russian military analyst.
Yuri Shchekochikin - ostensibly organized crime as you say, but 16 day mystery illness a few days before leaving for the US to meet with FBI officials (does Litvinenko ring a bell?) Litvinenko himself said it was a political assassination and given his fate - it rings true. Here is an article from your favorite UK paper, the Independent, on politically motivated assassinations attributed to Moscow (and Putin named)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/russian-deaths-uk-history-spies-murder-sergei-skripal-alexander-litvinenko-a8242061.html
These are only a couple of older deaths attributed to Russian security services - I can list many many more but for the sake of brevity...
(Old Spike)
I'm comparing RT to the US budget for foreign media because I don't know of any other state-funded media in Russia aimed at foreigners. I think that's pretty much it.
Here's what I can dig up about the US propaganda in foreign countries....
U.S. Agency for Global Media
Purpose: Global propaganda (Voice of America, Radio Free XXX etc.)
Budget FY 2016: $752 million
State Department Gobal Engagement Center
Purpose: Anti-Russia propaganda
Budget: $80 million
In addition, various programs by the state dept, spooks & pentagon that leverage US & foreign media that reach a global audience, eg. "retired" generals speaking on Fox, Pentagon information operations outside of war zones, N.E.D. sponsorship of satellite TV networks on the sly etc. I reckon it would total at least 1.5 billion but can't give an exact figure.
Someone should really put it all into a single report.
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You only skim the surface of the real reasons journalists are killed
I don't know much about why they're killed but can't find anything to support the accusations against Putin. There are some murders that seem to tie to the top brass in the federal govt but that could be coincidence. As far as I can tell, simply criticizing any politician in Russia just invites debate. I watch Russian media from time to time, you'd be surprised at how openly they talk about some topics. It's nothing like the US media.
(Short Spike)
Criticizing policy doesn't get you killed in Russia? Please.... and the Washington Post regularly wins Pulitzers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/23/here-are-ten-critics-of-vladimir-putin-who-died-violently-or-in-suspicious-ways/?utm_term=.d9ab4fcdd28a
(Old Spike)
Before I look into those (cheers for the link btw) when you say:
Washington Post regularly wins Pulitzers
The author himself doesn't have a Pilitzer but this article makes me think he's not a hack (worked for Boston Globe, investigating the Russian hack story to see if it's true, recognizes the fake news climate). WaPo can be okay on some subjects but no US media outlets are trustworthy on Russian politics.
Okay I don't regard that article you linked as good journalism...It lists Sergei Magnitsky.
That's just fake news. First it calls him a lawyer - he wasn't a lawyer. It says he was "allegedly being brutally beaten" - according to who? It goes on to say what else he "allegedly" did without providing any sources of the claims at all.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt & keep reading about the others but that's a major red flag.
(Old Spike)
Boris Nemtsov
Inconclusive. Caucus men have been found guilty but the investigation seems possibly shady, based on the wikipedia entry. It didn't help Putin or the Kremlin for him to be murdered like this. The article makes a big deal about his anti-Putin stance but the guy was not a political threat.
Boris Berezovsky
Suicide. Russian oligarch got buried in court by another Russian oligarch in London & topped himself.
Stanislav Markelov and Anastasia Baburova
Inconclusive. These are 2 of the 6 journalists from Novaya Gazeta who've been killed. That paper is extremely ballsy & makes a lot of enemies by investigating corruption & the Chechnyan conflict.
Sergei Magnitsky
Died in prison due to mistreatment (lack of medical treatment). This is not the official line, this is based on prior stuff I've seen, including an interview with his family.
Natalia Estemirova
Inconclusive. Another Novaya Gazeta journo who investigated the Chechnyan conflict got whacked.
Anna Politkovskaya
Suspicious. Another Novaya Gazeta journo who investigated the Chechnyan conflict got whacked. Spoke out strongly against Putin & was well-respected. Just like Boris Nemtsov, Politkovskaya's death was damaging to the Kremlin's image.
Alexander Litvinenko
Likely Kremlin hit. FSB agent who defected to UK & began working for MI6 was poisened.
Sergei Yushenkov
Possible Kremlin hit. Had accused FSB of false-flag operation in Chechnya.
Yuri Shchekochikhin
Possible Kremlin hit. Had accused FSB of false-flag operation in Chechnya & was trying to flee to US with classified documents.
---
Of the above, there are 4 human rights/investigative journos involved with Novaya Gazeta & 3 FSB figures who switched teams.
All 7 were involved in outing the dirty deeds of the war in Chechnya. This points ultimately to Putin but not him alone. If the FSB did pull some dodgy shit in Chechnya, the entire agency has motivation to keep the secrets buried.
I still find this statement misleading:
we know what happens to journalists that don't agree with policy in Russia. In fact anyone who causes enough waves to get Putin's negative attention
I'm keen to learn more about the journalism climate in Russia & admit I still don't really understand it. When I watch their political broadcasts it seems to be a much more open debate than what I see in Western media where it's all just partisan mind control hackery. Western independent media can be good. There are no Western media outlets who seriously question things like 9/11 though. If they did, maybe we'd see more get the Gary Webb treatment.
(Short Spike)
It looks like you're agreeing with me by the list of journalists suspiciously killed - common sense has to play into this at some point - well, I am going out on a limb here. Do you seriously believe anything gets done in Russia without Putin's consent? That is the definition of typhlosis. The reasons for putting these people in jail and at risk of death are not easily hidden given enough research - and how about using Polonium 210 to murder someone? Sending a message perhaps? It is not easily detectable by geiger counters as it emits low gamma radiation but alpha particles which are detectable and cause damage only when ingested. Putin wanted them to suffer and he wants you to know he did it - to warn others of the consequences and there's bugger all we can do about it. Which is why the MagnitskyAct is great - and it bothered Putin enough to mention Browder at the Summit in Helsinki - think about that - that is someone getting under his skin in a big way. He's been trying to get it revoked by Trump. (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/07/why-does-putin-hate-the-magnitsky-act.html)
As far as Magnitsky, if you really read his story - held in custody for 11 months without trial, no visits from his family (and read their story too - https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/magnitskys-thank-canada-for-joining-fight-against-human-rights-abusers/article36794558/)
Magnitsky was a modern day hero - he could have gone home if he gave up Browder (let that sink in for a moment) but he believed he was doing the right thing - in this day and age, not many could or would! Hence the Magnitsky Law enacted in several countries includeing the UK, USA and Canada. Do you think that act could have been passed without countries doing their own research about Magnitsky? Not a chance.
And did you like the high five Putin gave Bin Salman? Cut from the same cloth - autocrats both.
(Old Spike)
It looks like you're agreeing with me by the list of journalists suspiciously killed
Yeah to a point. Like I said I'm not too familiar with Russia's domestic journalism climate. I just don't take the word of Western media & have to look into things myself before forming an opinion about things like that. I knew of the Chechnya thing. It was a pretty awful affair, a civil war with 20k+ killed. I'd heard rumours about the FSB doing false flag shit & still don't know what to make of them. Could be true, could be that they don't mind offing people who promote them. Either way it's bad if FSB are the ones killing journo's (and I'm leaning in that direction).
Do you seriously believe anything gets done in Russia without Putin's consent?
Important things need his approval, sure. He has a micromanage style by the looks. Usually that's a bad thing but they seem to make it work. I've never been too concerned with how things are run in Russia, they seem to be okay with him & that's what matters. My concern is foreign policy & I think he does a great job of stabalising things while keeping their fp independent. Not an easy task when you're in Washington's crosshairs.
The reasons for putting these people in jail and at risk of death are not easily hidden given enough research - and how about using Polonium 210 to murder someone?
To be honest I still haven't done enough research to form an opinion. Russia fell apart in 1990 & then was a jungle until Putin took charge. I'm not convinced there aren't ex-KGB guys with access to things like plutonium just because I don't know enough about it.
Putin wanted them to suffer
That's speculation. What makes you think he's into sending messages like that?
the MagnitskyAct is great
Browder is a complete crook. The Magnitsky Act is a desparate move by the US government. Browder's campaign was obviously a load of shit. He lied every step of the way. Why do you think Browder has tried to have this doco banned?
Magnitsky was a modern day hero
I really have to question your judgement at this point. Start by doing thorough research into what happened in Russia in the 1990s.
Google: yeltsin harvard mafia
In short, Wall St sunk their hooks into Russia in the 90's while Yeltsin was on US State Dept payroll & by the time Putin took power it was an absolute mess with oligarchs backed by mafia running the place. He's cleaned it up considerably but the remnants remain. I'm not sure Russia & open-style democracy would ever work. They've never had a Western-style democracy in their history. They still have corruption issues & the rule of law is not set in stone like we think it is in our countries (it never really is when it comes to the state).
I'd like for us to all just back off, trade with them & give them a chance. My country, NZ, was about to sign a FTA with Russia in 2014 & then the US-backed Ukrainian coup happened. Since then it's been just fucked. It pisses me off that my country goes along with the bullshit just to appease Washington. All the US allies have become cucks in the past 1-2 decades. Especially Australia. It's shameful considering Iraq, Libya, Syria & countless other atrocities the US & friends have committed.
One final thing, sorry for the wall of text, but I had an independent investigative journo friend who went to Iraq in 2003 to cover the war. He 'fell from a Humvee' and died a day after he'd told his friends back here that he was uncovering some shit & was going to break a big story. His death is not listed anywhere near the stats on press freedom. So I take that stuff with a grain of salt based on personal experience & knowledge of things like Project Mockingbird. Just because we hide it better, doesn't mean our press is all we make it out to be. Just look at all the "ex"-CIA & NSA guys in the MSM these days, telling us how to interpret information. It's highly sophisticated, Russia could only dream of having that kind of skill & budget.
(Short Spike)
I'll try to be brief - so because you have a hard on of hate for the US, everything Moscow does is ok? The tally of journalists deaths in Russia since Putin took power is close to 38 - https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/jul/19/chris-wallace-vladimir-putins-critics-dead/ - not suspicious enough?
Hate is clouding your judgement - no one is clearing the west of crimes, at least there are publications that can report as they choose without fear of being killed - does the US govt. try to stop stories from being printed or influence the press? Of course they do. Not by killing journalists at Moscow's rate. And whether or not you believe Browder - how does that excuse Magnitsky's treatment in custody? He was asked to give up Browder - why would he not do it to gain his freedom and why kill him? It looks far worse - his prison diary states his fear of assassination and one of the commissionars from the Moscow Public Investigative Committee (investigating his death) states "the frightening feeling that it was not negligence but that it was, to some extent, as terrible as it is to say, a premeditated murder."
I live where there are a huge number of transplanted Russians and Russian descendants, some of whom are good friends. Putin is feared but respected as a strongman who keeps chaos at bay - and they agree, raise your head too high as a journalist, you will lose it - great atmosphere for freedom of the press. I'd rather live where journalists don't have to fear assassination. I have questioned Putin's motives since his tenure as deputy mayor of St. Petersburg - where he stole the money alloted for food for his people - his name on the documents (once again showing he fears no punitive damage) https://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2014-2015/putins-long-shadow - and yes, he was in charge, no one else had the authority. He flew the mayor out of danger when it became known. This is his character - cold blooded.
I did watch Nekrasov's doc - interesting and needs more research since he first filmed a doc that agreed with Browder - is the change of mind due to evidence alone or state pressure? He also did a doc "Rebellion: the Litvinenko Case" stating the FSB's responibility for the second war in Chechnya which brought Putin to power so that gives him credibility.
(Old Spike)
hard on of hate for the US
No just lack tolerance for certain memes like press freedom supremacy.... the US is ~#48 in the world for press freedom which is pretty bad, all things considered. The index also ignores a lot of the underhanded shit that the spooks & military do. The point of my anecdote is just that there are other ways that journalistic freedom is hampered. America learnt in Vietnam that allowing journalists to wander around a war zone is a big no-no so they're all embedded now. My mate wasn't embedded & I've always found it fishy, the story we got & what he said just prior.
That "38 journalists killed since Putin came to power" thing uses this as a source. That says that 58 journalists have been killed in Russia since 1992. So if we accept the 38 since Putin rose to power, which was 2000, then 20 journos were killed from 1992 to 1999 & 30 from 2000 to 2018, which gives us:
how does that excuse Magnitsky's treatment in custody?
Hmmm..... I dunno. He tried to help Browder swindle Russia out of ~$250M. What kind of treatment would you like to see him get? I'd like to see Maddoff punished more than he has been, I know that. We're way too soft on white collar crime IMO.
where he stole the money alloted for food for his people
This is from Wikipedia:
So Putin signed an order & the companies didn't deliver & his boss squashed it. How is this Putin's fault? Am I missing something?
Was Putin supposed to overrule his boss & investigate it himself?
Or resign?
We're talking about 1990's Russia, a wild West of corruption.
Rebellion: the Litvinenko Case
Cheers, yeah I should check that out. Yeah I think he solidified himself in Chechnya. And as ugly as that was, from the little I know, I think it was necessary. They have another little strongman keeping the peace there, trampling on human rights. It seems to be for the greater good. I don't support Kadyrov at all, he's awful, but those Caucuses are a wild place & even now they have Islamic militants running around in the forest & attacking authorities from time to time. Most people live in peace & that's the main thing. They're a different breed man. Stalin really did a number on their communities, shifting them all around just to repress them. Plus the orthodox Sunni Islam thing.
Anyway, I think we pretty much agree to be honest. Putin is a strongman & people respect him, like your Russian mates say. He's the right man to lead Russia right now, no?
Re: corruption - Money can't come close to buying the kind of power he has as head of that state so it's kinda insignificant so long as he doesn't push it too far. He works 7 days a week, like 15 hours a day. That kind of power can put $100M in an offshore account so easily.
As far as press freedom, a free press opens the door to political games. Oligarchs who own too much press can easily become kingmakers, that's why Putin chased them away & subdied them as one of the first orders of business. Free press also opens things up to foreign meddling. Hopefully Russia will become stronger & open things up more but while they're in the crosshairs of the US it's not happening anytime soon. They've done well not to go under since 2014. Lavrov & Putin are really at what they do. You see it in Syria, they've taken over from what was America's play. Turkey's answering to them now, more than the US anyway. It's no wonder the freaks in Washington are so scared.
(finished)
(Short Spike)
And where is Russia on that list? 148? That's generous. And you're comparing journalists killed in the same country! That's like a tally of a serial killer's competition. As stated - Putin's character is stealing food from hungry people.
(Old Spike)
Putin's character is stealing food from hungry people.
That's bollux. He signed an order for companies to deliver food & they didn't deliver. Then his boss squashed the investigation. I don't know what you'd expect him to do in that situation - Russia's 1990's corruption was epic. He can't overrule the mayor. What should he have done?
(Short Spike)
Please read and learn: https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2012-04-19/putin-and-the-100-million-deal-that-disappeared
(Old Spike)
This one receives funding from Soros' Open Society Foundation. Get a clean source.
(Short Spike)
here is some more fuel for that fire: https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/article/stealing-russia-blind
(Old Spike)
Journal of Democracy receives funding from CIA cutout National Endowment for Democracy.
I'm not going to bother with that source.
(Short Spike)
want to talk about Sochi? He makes Trump look like a novice.
(Short Spike)
this one from your favorite UK paper - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/vladimir-putin-corruption-five-things-we-learned-about-the-russian-presidents-secret-wealth-a6834171.html
(Old Spike)
I'll check it out. It's citing a study from the BBC from interviews with former Russian oligarchs. BBC produce terrible shows about foreign leaders that the UK government wants to demonize. You should check out their one on Bashar al Assad. It's crude propaganda.
(Short Spike)
I would have liked Magnitsky to get a fair trial, how about that for starters? The contadiction is that you blame the US for it's evil influence around the world, yet give Moscow a pass on murder and corruption - apparently it's ok to torture and murder accountants like Magnitsky for unproven accusations, kill journalists ad hoc but only if it's Moscow. Is that hyposcrisy or foolishness?
(Old Spike)
I don't give anyone a pass on murder & corruption.
The Russian economy was overhauled in the 1990s as they transitioned from communism to capitalism. They ended up with an almost collapsed country, their wealth was halved in a few years. The result was massive, wide-spread corruption. It's just a matter of history.
Since taking office, Putin's cleaned up the place considerably. A lot of the oligarchs fled or were brought into line to allow Russia to be a country of law. It still has work to do, sure. There is no country that is 100% corruption-free. You think the SEC is an honest broker? US spent trillions on fixing their economy after it was wrecked by over-zealous finance companies and they gave themselves bonuses. Is that a clean economy?
In the end you have to decide whether Putin is a corrupting influence on the Russian economy or whether he inherited a corrupt economy and has steered it towards something better. I'm of the latter opinion but that doesn't give a pass to anyone. Any corruption is bad & there's no excuse for perpetuating it to enrich yourself. We've wandered into a different topic here though. Maybe something for another post.
(Short Spike)
one last thing - my Russian friends all agree on one thing - they are glad to be here, not in Putin's shadow.
(Old Spike)
where is here?
(Short Spike)
I'm a Canuck - though I've lived in the US and UK both. Good to hear that you don't give corruption a pass - For myself, I
can't excuse the murders under his regime or any other. I understand that he's trying to regain the reputation of the old state - and I certainly don't give the US a pass on it's record, I just don't think Trump assassinates people that don't agree with him. The fact that Russia would devolve into a chaotic mess of mafia like fiefdoms doesn't give Putin a pass either.
(Old Spike)
I just don't think Trump assassinates people that don't agree with him
If you're going to make a claim like this you have to be able to prove it. I think you're overstepping the mark. The FSB suppressing things that happened during a civil war falls more into the category of national security. You're making out like Putin orders the murder of political opponents but you don't even have circumstantial evidence of that. Navalny is a foreign agent, having been on the payroll of CIA cutout NED, and he does his best to paint a picture of corruption in the Kremlin & yet he still lives. He'd be the first one killed if Putin was how you describe him.
(Short Spike)
Once again, why would you think anything gets done in the name of Russia without Putin's consent? We know he was a former KGB officer, do you think he learned nothing there - do you seriously expect anyone to believe he doesn't control the FSB or the removal of said rivals? He's extended his stay in office a few times, dubiously - that is someone who wants to stay in control for a long time, and he is taking care of his finances for the inevitable day when he will no longer be head of state.
You imply that Trump could have rivals assassinated without being found out? - he can't even get a wall built, much less get someone taken out. He's a buffoon, not even a serious republican. Have any of Trump's rivals been taken out? Now look at Putin's adversaries - the list already stated previously - oh ya, it was done by the FSB without his knowledge - sure it was. You are ingnoring the obvious - why, I am not sure.
Your own mention Navalny himself describes the ruling party as crooks and thieves - and he has been arrested many times for it. He's been stifled by Putin more than a few times - his run for mayor of Moscow was cut short by election fraud (gee - what a coincedence) according to him and his colleagues. He was banned from running for president by the electoral commission (wonder if Putin knew about that?) - and upheld by the Russian Supreme Court - what another coincedence! He's quite obviously been neutered by Putin - not a threat in any way. He's basically a political prisoner in his own country. He's been placed under house arrest every time he raises his head high enough to get noticed. If he ever manages to become a rival of consequence - well, let's see what happens to him.
I will bring up Boris Nemtsov and before you bring up the Chechan 5 who were supposedly convicted, I will bring up the story by David Satter - https://twitter.com/DavidSatter/status/925423580321546240
(Old Spike)
You're conflating journalists with political rivals.
That article is anti-Putin advocacy. I stick by my earlier analysis of the Boris Nemtsov murder.
[Navanly's] basically a political prisoner in his own country
Yeah, like I said he's a foreign agent. To be in politics in Russia you have to have at least tacit approval from Putin's syndicate. Taking money from Washington & organising mass anti-government demonstrations is not how you climb the ladder there.
(Short Spike)
I didn't believe you'd be dissuaded from your opinion - no matter what - well, again at least we agree you need Putin's approval to get "things" done in Russia. I don't believe Nemtsov is a journalist. If you mean Satter, please read his "Age of Delirium - the rise and fall of the Soviet Union" or Anna Politkovskaya's "Putin's Russia" - both wrote about the moral vacuum left after the fall of Russia. If Nemtsov is an agent, he is effectively neutered in Russia, and I am sure he's monitored 24/7, so he's not going to get to be any kind of threat, if he was, he'd already be dead imo. That also makes you wonder about the rivals killed - they must have been perceived to be actual threats.
Living next door to the US, with it's enormous influence and having lived there as well, I have no illusions about it's misuse of power - I know and knew many journalists in the US - some no longer with us. (I thought you said you don't have a hard on of hate for the US? - it sure doesn't look that way by your posts) - I miss some of the critical context in our discussions in the southern US but I don't miss living there. Trump's rise was certainly not predicted but some good has come out of it - more women in politics and more awareness. We'll see if there's any light coming down the pike.
(Old Spike)
I'm rarely openly dissuaded from my opinion but I learn a lot by taking a side & debating a topic & make my own mind up regardless of what I say here. It's quite difficult to prove some of these things either way because the allegation is that you can't trust the judicial system in Russia & that's where the buck stops, after that it's finding out which investigative journalists you can trust & there are only 3 people in the world that I put in that category.
For all the shit Putin gets, painting him as an evil dictator etc, there's surely a whole lot of bullshit in it. He's an adversary of Washington, it comes with the territory.
Thing is, Russia is quite a nationalist/authoritatian-leaning culture from what I can gather & Putin is actually flanked on the right by some more hardcore political opponents who he has to throw a bone to now & then. I wouldn't be surprised if domestically there are forces at play who are pushing things toward a more closed society so I'm still just judging Putin by the actions I see him take. I'm more interested in int'l stuff & on the world scene I think he's been a net force for good. Again, he gets a lot of shit thrown his way as if he wants to take over the world or whatever but it's sheer nonsense, this is why I take anything about him with a grain of salt because my compass is what I can see that happens compared to what people say in the Western media. There's just no comparison.
Cheers for the recommendation I'll try to suss her out. She seems well respected.