nah it's not FG but it's just as ridiculous & made for the same audience - ignorant bigots
peng shuai had an affair with a politician, wrote a social media post & deleted it, then western media & wta boss wouldn't let it go even after her requests for them to respect her privacy. It became trending & so this grifter made a video about it. I'll not bother watching it but I know it'll be full of misinfo.
videos by this grifter are only believable if you have both of these attributes:
1) you know fuck all about the issues discussed
2) you assume chinese govt is "evil"
even if you have these qualities though it shouldn't pass the smell test, it's not like political culture war grifting on youtube is a new thing & you can investigate stuff for yourself.
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Dude (Old Spike)
First one to answer, you don't work other then spreading propaganda do you?
You are a filty human beeing for protecting that rapist, absolutely filty
If you would have watched the video as your overlords forbade you you would see what it is about, but you dare not, don't worry, WW3 set you free.
You did not vote either, you will do that later right? Not to be suspicious
if you think you got us fooled forget about it.
And you lied about not living in China
This site is even funded by you...or should i say the CCP
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norcimo5 (Short Spike)
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skeptoid (Old Spike)
If you string them along a little bit more yes indeed he does answer in real time. This is what he does he sits here and waits for opportunities to spread CCP propaganda. And not just here of course but there were likely be multiple places where he does this. It's just that here he's managed to capture an admin position. He probably plays that up to his payers as some kind of great accomplishment.
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Boomshackalacka (dumb cunt)
Why won't he return to his reddit page? I'm sure it's a much larger audience with the potential of finding people who don't see his bullshit as......bullshit. Danman is just a CCP troll but site administrator on SN? WTF?
https://www.reddit.com/user/danmanjones
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skeptoid (Old Spike)
Please don't agree with me - you don't like Danman because he's eating up valuable propaganda space that should be entirely reserved for you. It's fasicnating to watch two paid propagandists who find themselves at cross purposes arguing with each other insincerely - these times are fascinating.
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danman (Site Administrator)
@Dude that's just ridiculous ad hom + lies.
you asked for my thoughts on this grifter's video & I gave them.
now you act all butthurt & call me a child without addressing a single thing I said...
that's skeptoid-level shit .. childish insults + pure projection.
try arguing the topic if you're capable.
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Dude (Old Spike)
I think i did a pretty good job explaining everything, and how can you discuss the topic if you don't watch the video?
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danman (Site Administrator)
I don't need to watch it to debunk it.
I've given you a breif account of what happened because I followed the story since day one, including reading her original social media post in a decent English translation & listening to neutral Chinese speakers interpret it to make sure the translation was legit & discuss the key detail that Western media got wrong - she never claimed she was assaulted in any way, it was a lie that western media told & relied on since the start. There's no excuse for getting it so wrong, it's just been another propaganda campaign based on disinformation that uninformed people will fall for.
She's been attending public events, has spoken to the IOC, even though she had no obligation to prove anything to any foreign org & gave an interview with a Singaporian outlet a couple weeks ago where she refuted the claim about "sexual assault" and said it was a misunderstanding. I say it was just another Western propaganda campaign aimed at undermining the image of the Chinese state & the propagandists don't give a single shit about Peng Shuai's safety like they pretend to... they actually caused her a big headache with this silly campaign.
She was never missing as the western media claimed so the entire premise of the video is disinfo from the start.
Are you going to stand by the video you posted & claim she was missing or slink away?
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Dude (Old Spike)
Look at how fast you reply, you don't acctualy work other then spreading propaganda, do you?
Just watch the video before you reply, that is how it works on spiked.
And why where you following it in the media, nothing bad ever happens in China....
This is how it works, you claim not to have seen the video, because you have no arguments, other then claiming to have followed it from day one, textbook manipulation by faking ignorance.
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danman (Site Administrator)
I've just debunked the video & didn't need to watch it. Don't cry & resort to insults.
I never said nothing bad happened. She was preyed on by that married guy, it's highly unethical considering she's quite emotionally immature having been brought up in high performance tennis institutes as athletes in China tend to be. She was manipulated by that smooth talking old git who's twice her age. It's typical sleazy married old guy stuff & he did it right in front of his wife too so it's double sleaze. This isn't the same as sexual assault though & she was never missing. Those things are lies that western media used to hype the story & try & get a #MeToo thing going. It fell flat 2 weeks ago when she was interviewed as I've said... she flatly refuted the lies the MeToo shit relied on. She had an affair with a married man & fell in love, got all messed up about it when he didn't leave his wife for her, made a social media post & then deleted it. Western media doesn't give a fuck about respecting her privacy but pretends to care about her well-being based on an easily debunked lie they told. The situation's fubar, I don't care if you call me a propagandist for telling it like it is.
You should answer my question:
Are you going to stand by the video you posted & claim she was missing?
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Dude (Old Spike)
O Threatening... what are you going to do? delete the video or my account? :)
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danman (Site Administrator)
do you feel threatened?
Why don't you answer the question. Will you stand by the premise of this video you uploaded or nah?
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Dude (Old Spike)
You just changed your reply, as an admin you can do that, your reply WAS threatening, since you changed it it makes me look crazy now, if you play it like that we are done talking
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danman (Site Administrator)
I was still editing it when you replied & never made anything close to a threat, I can't remember exactly the words but it was basicalle what's below. If you're gonna accuse me of making a threat to avoid the question that's kinda lame IMO.
All I've been asking is:
Are you going to stand by the video you posted & claim she was missing?
edit: oh now I remember, I added to the question - "or are you gonna slink away" but thought that was too aggro so removed it. I meant will you just leave the thread hanging rather than address the question. Will you?
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Dude (Old Spike)
Stop it with the nazi shit, i only warn you once, you overstep the boundry now
you know when they scroll trough, noone is going to read it all you are pulling it, you are the one refusing to watch the video
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danman (Site Administrator)
Nazi shit? Now you're just being weird. Take your meds.
Since you've refused to stand by the premise of the video you posted 4X now we can consider it debunked.
Better luck next time.
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Dude (Old Spike)
lol
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skeptoid (Old Spike)
The four wokeists who downvoted Dan should be agreeing with him here - they also don't think they need to watch source material to debunk it. Goes to show that it's just four people that are given a list of who to upvote and who to downvote and they just do that without any other thought whatsoever - just children directed by another child.
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
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Dude (Old Spike)
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Pdub (Old Spike)
Look at that hairline at 3:34. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a dude all this time.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Dan, if you want to prove you're not a CCP shill, then say one thing that the west does better than China.
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danman (Site Administrator)
propaganda
music (some Chinese friends agree on this even though they're China patriots)
tv shows of every kind other than historical dramas
cars (not sure how much longer for)
we're richer so all the shit that comes with that - better SoL for middle class since more expendible income & more stuff per person, that's more a result of history rather than what we do today but it's still 'better'
comedy (subjective but I think objectively we're more advanced on things like standup comedy & some other forms)
rugby, basketball etc
in NZ at least corruption domestically is minimal .... west is a bit general, but the above counts for west in general... if we compare countries I could list more in terms of governance or education or some shit
now prove you're not a sinophobe - why do you accuse people of being a "CCP shill" if they debunk retarded propaganda about China or dare to say positive things about the place.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Wow, didn't believe you would actually do it, but a big lol at "propaganda".
Sure there's a shit load of it in the west, but at least you can publically speak your mind and criticize the government all you want. Again, the internet is relatively censor-free in the west, but I see that it's also becoming an issue here with "wokeism". Still no big firewall that chooses what you can see and what you can't.
I'm not a sinophobe. Nothing really against them.
What gets me is when you try to present a "better than your country" image with any lack of objectivity when it's obvious it's not all rainbows and sunshine. That goes for both sides.
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danman (Site Administrator)
they do do some things better than our countries
just look at the deaths from covid in 2021 - they had 2 deaths and about 10,000 cases total for the year, mostly imported.
when western countries like US tries to criticize China on human rights grounds, it's purely political & when you look at the facts it's fucking laughable. I post some facts to refute this horseshit where West uses misinfo & weaponized empathy to demonize China. If you have facts to counter what I say, show them. We can get into it any time.
why a big lol at propaganda? do you think China is better at propaganda than the west?
do you think Chinese are more heavily indoctrinated than Americans for instance?
and you can't seriously believe China is better at foreign propaganda than the West.
Sure you can criticize the govt more loosely in the West, and there's a lot to criticize, but what does that achieve?
Does it change anything?
Criticisms of Chinese govt are possible but not slandering it recklessely. It's a different political system there. There are 92 million CPC members & they constantly find ways to improve things - this includes criticising existing systems. Intellectuals also write up criticisms of the govt & how loosely they can speak changes over time. They're in a more conservative patch at the moment. They get public feedback in a variety of ways, including protests when people get pissed off. They don't need agitators like Alex Jones causing unnecessary disorder & it can be dangerous in a system like theres. If people lose faith in the govt it can lead to revolution - they had 4 of them in 20th Century alone & the Taiping rebellion in late 19th C that killed about 30 million people.
I don't know why you're bothered about the ways they can criticize their own government... why is that important to you or make you assume they're doing domething "worse"?
Are liberal standards "better" than illiberal ones just because? No further thought required?
You sure you're not projecting the values you've been indoctrinated with on another people where they don't actually apply in the way you assume?
What if they're quite happy to let the 92 million member squad sort out governance while they focus on things that matter to them, they can complain any time they want through the right channels & if enough people complain shit often gets fixed for them. Their govt constantly surveys people too to make sure leaders are keeping people happy. It's different there & if you wanna make judgements about it you should really find out how it works first IMO.
you can have a scan over this doc to see how they think their version of democracy is going
here are some snippets of public opinion there....
1) They say they have about enough democracy
2) They say social media has a positive impact on their democracy
3) They want more regulation of social media, not less
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
You post stuff that makes it hard to take you seriously.
You're either naive, lack any objectivity, or a CCP shill.
"Just look at the deaths from covid in 2021 - they had 2"
Yeah I take it back, the west is far superior at propaganda. I mean if your going to lie, atleast try to give a reasonable number from a country of 1.4 billion people.
"why a big lol at propaganda? do you think China is better at propaganda than the west?"
As I said, I take it back. China isn't that good at propaganda, but excels at censoring.
"do you think Chinese are more heavily indoctrinated than Americans for instance?"
Possibly equally bad. Just different styles.
Again an open internet helps alleviate this as one can get some perspective from out side the bubble. Doesn't work for deeply patriotic types, but hey, the option is there.
"and you can't seriously believe China is better at foreign propaganda than the West."
They don't have to be, again because they are more closed society with state-controlled media and internet. What really matters is what your own people think.
"Sure you can criticize the govt more loosely in the West, and there's a lot to criticize, but what does that achieve?
Does it change anything?"
Slowly but surely it does. Even if it did nothing, the right to do so should always exist.
"Did you know Chinese people want more regulation of the internet & not less?"
Again this is what makes me think you are a shill or just extremely naive.
If you ask a person does he or she want more access to information, I don't think anyone would say no, unless they are deeply brainwashed.
BTW why are you using google services?
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danman (Site Administrator)
> "Did you know Chinese people want more regulation of the internet & not less?"
> Again this is what makes me think you are a shill or just extremely naive.
I just showed you the data... did you not see it?
(I put it in as an edit)
> As I said, I take it back. China isn't that good at propaganda, but excels at censoring.
Western media also excels at this by training establishment journalists to omit uncomfy things & editors setting the tone with undisclosede ties to the government, especially govt spooks.
> Slowly but surely [criticism of govt] does. Even if it did nothing, the right to do so should always exist.
They have the right to criticise the govt in China. What gets censored is political organising, slander & sometimes legit criticisms which isn't great but can be a result of the way they do it. They outsource filtering of social media there to private orgs & their ass is on the line so they err on the side of caution & can be oversealous. This is a common complaint.
As for blocking foreign websites, I support this 100%. The information they're missing out on isn't crucial & when weighed next to the benefits to their country of doing this it's a net positive IMO. They don't get as much foreign disinfo or stupidity & they don't become so "westernized"/"internationalized" in their culture as much. The latter is more of an unintentional bonus but political culture of West is something they'd likely have wanted to keep out. It's pretty fucking toxic tbh. There's also the whole Western media agitating people in targeted countries that you may or may not be aware of. China more than anyone needs to keep that shit on lock, they're the number 1 target right now. Being penetrated by Western media would be a nightmare for their stability.
iirc there's more books written in Chinese than any other language
I think they'll be just fine without allowing every single foreign wesbite being readily available in their country.
if you disagree, tell me what it is you think they're missing out on that's so important?
"Just look at the deaths from covid in 2021 - they had 2"
Yeah I take it back, the west is far superior at propaganda. I mean if your going to lie, atleast try to give a reasonable number from a country of 1.4 billion people.
Well I'd ask you to provide some evidence to backup this statement but we both know that you haven't a clue about China's covid response so what's the point?
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"I just showed you the data... did you not see it?"
Yes I saw the "data"
"Western media also excels at this by training establishment journalists to omit uncomfy things & editors setting the tone with undisclosede ties to the government, especially govt spooks."
Yes totally agree. Thats why open internet is important. MSM is slowly loosing it's grip because of it.
"As for blocking foreign websites, I support this 100%"
Why are you here then? Why are you using sites like YouTube?
"They don't get as much foreign disinfo or stupidity & they don't become so "westernized"/"internationalized" in their culture as much. The latter is more of an unintentional bonus but political culture of West is something they'd likely have wanted to keep out. It's pretty fucking toxic tbh."
I agree. It's mostly bullshit that nobody needs. STILL, the alternative of blocking access is far far worse.
There is also usefull info that would go with it if we started to go that route.
Though I don't think we would loose much if we closed FB & Twitter :)
"Well I'd ask you to provide some evidence to backup this statement but we both know that you haven't a clue about China's covid response so what's the point?"
You want me to post my propaganda to counter your propaganda?
No, I'm just using common sense.
If it was 500 000 deaths and I'd be like "Thats pretty damn low for a country of 1.4 billion but I guess they are doing something right"
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danman (Site Administrator)
>Yes I saw the "data"
Are you going to pull the ultimate cope tactic & reject data because it doesn't fit your bias?
>Yes totally agree. Thats why open internet is important.
How does open internet change the manipulation of media? Doesn't it amplify it? You wanna see Tim Pools setting up in China repeating lame shit they hear in the media & whipping up ignorant chauvinism? Sadist!
>Why are you here then? Why are you using sites like YouTube?
This site isn't blocked in China, I was using it while I was there. I was using YouTube while I was there too but that was with a VPN, Mainly because I can't read Chinese so entertainment options are limited there for me. There's a bunch of Chinese who jump the GFW to see foreign media. Many find it crass & when it comes to reporting on their country it's an absolute joke. It actually increases nationalism there when they see how we lie our ass off about their country & act so hostile towards it. IMO Chinese people tend to understand the US better than Americans do, I don't expect you to agree, this is just my opinion based on hearing many opinions of Chinese on the topic. They're not idiots & can get info they need to stay informed.
>the alternative of blocking access is far far worse.
I don't agree. Each to their own I suppose. What's more important is whether Chinese agree or not. Enough of them jump the GFW to see what it's like on the blocked websites & very few bother with it. There are some annoying liberals there who fall for the horseshit on western media but they're outnumbered, thankfully.
>I'm just using common sense.
Nah, you're using assumptions. It's not impossible to do what they've done. It just takes extreme measures & a lot of effort at every level, as well as a copmliant population. They have enough trust in their government that basically everyone goes along with it. They've been enjoying the freedom they have as a result of keeping COVID out & look at most other countries, especially the Western ones in utter disbelief at how they've handled it. A bit like you can't believe how they've handled it, the difference being you have no clue about their measures.
>If it was 500 000 deaths and I'd be like "Thats pretty damn low for a country of 1.4 billion but I guess they are doing something right"
Citing a number like that makes you seem even more clueless than I gave you credit for. And you're the one saying THEY have a problem accessing information. Fucking clown world.
According to your hot take the Chinese government is competent enough to silence all possible evidence of hundreds of thousands of COVID deaths (there would be shitloads) but incompetent enough to let that happen.
>BTW why are you using google services?
Do you mean Youtube? I use it because there's content on it that I wanna see. I'm a monolingual Westerner. That's what we do isn't it?
Is there some reason I shouldn't be using it?
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Are you going to pull the ultimate cope tactic & reject data because it doesn't fit your bias?"
I didn't see a poll about how free the internet should be, thats what I was talking about.
Don't really get what wanting to regulate social media means. Regulate how? Does it mean they want the state to control what's being said on social media? If so, the problem is even deeper.
"his site isn't blocked in China, I was using it while I was there. I was using YouTube while I was there too but that was with a VPN, Mainly because I can't read Chinese so entertainment options are limited there for me."
You didn't really answer my question. Why are you consuming toxic western content? You preach how limiting access for the Chinese is a good thing, but why aren't you following suite? This site is nothing but YT videos and YT is banned in china as far as I know.
"Nah, you're using assumptions."
That I am. 2 deaths is still laughable.
Curious how you are super critical of western media, but all Chinese info gets a free pass.
Try using the same critical thinking for both sides.
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danman (Site Administrator)
I agree it's not clear what regulation meant in the questions but it does mean government intervention at the least. My guess would be that they want to regulate the monopolistic practices of the big tech companies there, make sure their data isn't being abused, make sure tech billionaires don't get too big for their boots & the 'problem' you described as 'deeper'. As for this 'deeper problem', there are those in the West who also want the govt to silence more people who annoy them, or who they see as too reckless or whatever.
Chinese tend to value social stability higher than we do ... it's a different country with a different culture, remember? They also have very high trust in their govt at the moment, unlike us & they look at it differently because it is quite a different system. Are you sure you're not projecting your own values on them in a crude way that's ultimately misguided?
There definitely are censorship issues there that piss people off at times, like there are here in the West. Do you know about the kind of complaints people there have around censorship?
- the latest one is sexy skins being removed from the CN Genshin Impact server, it was the result of feminists there brigading the game on social media to get their way. Sound familiar?
> You didn't really answer my question. Why are you consuming toxic western content? You preach how limiting access for the Chinese is a good thing, but why aren't you following suite? This site is nothing but YT videos and YT is banned in china as far as I know.
Your question wasn't very clear but I thought that's what you may have meant.
Western content isn't toxic to me because I have good bullshit detectors. This came from spending a shitload of time figuring out the nature of the lies we're fed here in the West. I mainly use it because it's the platform that houses most of the content in my language. I don't speak any other language... do I have much choice?
I'd support cutting off Youtube from NZ, at least until we can tax it & own our own data. It's a digital + cultural sovereignty issue to me. I'm also not a fan of the streaming services like Netflix/Amazon. I don't like American media being so prominent on our airwaves. If we cut some of it out we'll find alternatives & maybe produce more local content - this would cause less American culture & propaganda indoctrinating people here. The curious among us would still share the good shit regardless of what the govt does.
For a country like China or a place like EU I think it's an easier sell because they have the means to produce more local content. But only one of the above has the balls to tell US big tech to adhere to their law or fuck off. In China it's fine, they already have a huge entertainment industry, made by & for their culture & in the language they speak. The West is going to be hard pressed to prevent Chinese culture dominating East Asia in the future but they're trying with the billions they're spending on propaganda each year that explicitly aims to undermine Chinese influence over there, mostly with the kind of misinfo fear porn propaganda they target us with. Are you glad to see yellow peril alive & well thanks to mass-manipulation via corrupt media & big tech algorithms?
> 2 deaths is still laughable.
Yeah I get why you'd think that. It's quite amazing how they deal with it. It's like that state was made to pwn this virus seeing the way they've handled it. I'm just glad NZ followed their lead & put the lives of our citizens first... it was the optimum way to keep the economy chugging away too so it really made sense to have a zero-covid strategy in the end. We've enjoyed way more freedom than a lot of other Western countries during COVID, as has China. The economic figures don't lie either. A small problem we have here is that we've spent a lot of our national reserves on dealing with it & some of the spending has been sub-optimal. We don't have the same kind of resources at our disposal as they do, not just money, people & systems too.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
" My guess would be that they want to regulate the monopolistic practices of the big tech companies there, make sure their data isn't being abused, make sure tech billionaires don't get too big for their boots & the 'problem' you described as 'deeper'. As for this 'deeper problem', there are those in the West who also want the govt to silence more people who annoy them, or who they see as too reckless or whatever."
Yeah, in this scenario tech billionairs is changed for the state. Someone is always watching and collecting data. I'll give you that at least it's done domestically. Anyway, if this is what Chinese are worried about, nobody would be forcing then to use the western social media IF it was available. It's always a choice. Like many people are fleeing FB because of privacy concerns.
"Chinese tend to value social stability higher than we do ... it's a different country with a different culture, remember?"
I get it, they are brought up differently. It begs the question if you don't know things could be different it's hard to even question it. The same applies to the west to a good extent.
That's why I think a free internet is important as it atleast gives a glimpse of how things are done differently in other places. For good or worse. The CCP is mainly concerned with outside influences and ideas seeping into their culture, also censoring their own history that is unfarovable to the state. It's all about keeping control of the people and keeping the social stability in place.
I remeber the word of the Chinese business partner that I sold the VPN to.
"Don't worry, I will not spread any propaganda" That was kinda revealing into the mindset of a chinese man.
"Western content isn't toxic to me because I have good bullshit detectors. This came from spending a shitload of time figuring out the nature of the lies we're fed here in the West. I mainly use it because it's the platform that houses most of the content in my language. I don't speak any other language... do I have much choice?"
You'd be pissed if someone told you what site you can visit? Well, the Chinese can't really even complain because they don't know what's been kept from them. I'm sure they would, if they blocked them after being available.
This is how they are brought up, so it's hard to complain when you don't know any better.
Anyway, I think it's hypocritical if you support denying internet access "to protect their culture", while you keep using said sites. It's the old "Do as I say, not as I do". High ideals that you set up for other, but don't participate yourself. I'm sure the chinese would quickly develop their own bullshit detectors just as the rest of us.
As for the language barrier, the same goes for the chinese, as far as I know english isn't that prevalent and most wouldn't even get anything out of it. Big part of the language barrier is that China has always been quite closed, but I'm sure they like it that way. It's a great filter if you only know chinese.
"I'd support cutting off Youtube from NZ, at least until we can tax it & own our own data."
I don't think you'd get much support from the general public for this. Would never work.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> It's all about keeping control of the people and keeping the social stability in place
Those are 2 of the main reasons things are filtered there. There are others but those are good enough, no? It's their country & they can run it how they wish, right?
Let's flip this around for a sec...
You have access to Weibo, Bilibili, WeChat, iQiyi, & a host of other Chinese internet platforms.
How many do you use?
Below are the major global streaming platforms...
Does it look like they're missing out or does it look like blocking overseas platforms from having free reign there has led to them developing their own shit?
Have you ever used a Chinese streaming service? Why/why not?
> I think it's hypocritical if you support denying internet access "to protect their culture", while you keep using said sites
I don't mind some curious & capable people jumping the firewall, nor does the Chinese govt based on how they don't really even enforce their own bans on foreign internet.
You're looking past what I said about political agitation. The West are experts in this & would be going deep on China's internet if they could right now. I think the liberal v illiberalism debate comes down to the conditions at hand. Right now China is about to bust through a centuries-long western domination of the world & we're gonna be throwing everything at them we can, including sophisticated media campaigns aimed at agitating their people. Political stability there is no joke, millions can die if things get fucky. In the future when the coast is clear I support more liberal policies with their internet & culture in general tbh. For now it's time to grind through & get their economy into an untouchable position where it should be without unncessary disturbance.
What is it that's being filtered from the internet in China that you think they really should have access to?
Do you honestly believe they're more ignorant of their own history than we are of ours?
Do you think they're more ignorant about the West than we are of China?
What is it they should be more informed on that their internet filtering prevents?
Would they be better off if they saw more of the crazy dumb shit we say about them?
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Those are 2 of the main reasons things are filtered there. There are others but those are good enough, no? It's their country & they can run it how they wish, right?"
Sure they can run it anyway they want. My point is that it's done by limiting and cencoring information.
If you can't see how some might see that as problematic / authoritarian, I don't think we have anything to talk about here. You seem to like the freedom of information you have, I'd suspect they would too.
"
Let's flip this around for a sec...
You have access to Weibo, Bilibili, WeChat, iQiyi, & a host of other Chinese internet platforms.
How many do you use?"
One guy at work uses wechat to get quick info on orders and other stuff. Thats about as close I've come.
What your point? Because I don't use their stuff, why would they use ours?
"Below are the major global streaming platforms...
Does it look like they're missing out or does it look like blocking overseas platforms from having free reign there has led to them developing their own shit?"
I've never used any of those services. But it's not about shitty streaming services, it's about access to information.
"You're looking past what I said about political agitation."
I wonder how the rest of the world has coped with this western media onslaught propaganda machine.
Is Chinas social and political structure so fragile that it would crumble??
If so, again the problems go deeper, but I don't think thats the case, it's just about control.
"What is it that's being filtered from the internet in China that you think they really should have access to?"
Everything the rest of the world has too.
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danman (Site Administrator)
Sure they can run it anyway they want. My point is that it's done by limiting and cencoring information.
If you can't see how some might see that as problematic / authoritarian, I don't think we have anything to talk about here. You seem to like the freedom of information you have, I'd suspect they would too.
Yeah I see your point, All countries censor information & have their own official version of history. And there are always ways people communicate unofficial history also. Our govt & media does things different to theirs. The result is that they know more about us than we know about them and they have a better understanding of their own history & civilization than we do about ours.
What your point? Because I don't use their stuff, why would they use ours?
Yes. That's my point. You wouldn't get much use from it because you can't read or write Chinese. Similarly not very many Chinese can read English. This alone kinda debunks a lot of your argument don't you think?
Also, do you feel like you're missing out because you don't access information written in Chinese eg. stuff on Baidu Baike?
Should everyone in the world make sure they can access sites that have their HQ in Silicon Valley & are written in English to prevent you feeling bad for them?
They should all open their shit up for any kind of foreign meddling we throw at them via the internet, huh?
And let their citizens digital data just fly away as if ownership & sovereignty isn't a thing, straight to the NSA servers to be have algorithms & analytics run on it to enhance the bots that go to work on their population, fomenting instability & social unrest when desired. Cool plan - let foreigners control propaganda your citizens consume when they openly call you a threat to the world order they've been running for centuries & will do anything to trip you up.
Everything the rest of the world has too.
Such as?
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Yes. That's my point. You wouldn't get much use from it because you can't read or write Chinese. Similarly not very many Chinese can read English."
Your argument makes no sense. It's ok to censor the internet because our people don't understand english?
Of course they censor it because some do speak english, or information that they don't like no matter the language.
I would gestimate that compared to most countries, chinas english is poor, but with the huge population that would amount to a shit load of people that do understand it well. English after all is the most spoken language in the world.
I live in Finland. Take a wild guess why I'm fairly good at english. Don't judge my grammar though :)
"Should everyone in the world make sure they can access sites that have their HQ in Silicon Valley & are written in English to prevent you feeling bad for them?"
I'd prefer it was all blue.
Such as?
The same access as NZ for example. According to the map above, you're better off than my country.
btw you missed this:
I wonder how the rest of the world has coped with this western media onslaught propaganda machine.
Is Chinas social and political structure so fragile that it would crumble??
If so, again the problems go deeper, but I don't think thats the case, it's just about control.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> Your argument makes no sense. It's ok to censor the internet because our people don't understand english?
No no, my point is that your argument that they're missing out on something by not having access to some sites that are mostly in English is a bit moot because most there don't even understand English. Academics there have access to everything as do some business people & others. There's also plenty who unofficially have access via VPNs (around 15% of the population there use VPNs to hop the GFW last I checked but don't use it a lot because there's not much they want from foreign sites). If you're worried they don't have access to Western thought you needn't. The intelligentsia there are quite familiar with Western thought & can pick bits up that they want to utilize.
> English after all is the most spoken language in the world
No, that would be Chinese. English is 3rd or 2nd if you include those who can speak it as 2nd language.
> I'd prefer it was all blue.
in an ideal world, sure. In the real world there are many considerations & each country has the right to choose how they run things, in theory.
> Such as? ...
I meant can you give me examples of what it is that Chinese mainlanders are missing out on in terms of access to information. Real examples - Twitter? Wikipedia? Youtube?
> Is Chinas social and political structure so fragile that it would crumble?
> If so, again the problems go deeper, but I don't think thats the case, it's just about control.
Not necessarily crumble but that doesn't mean open access to everything for everyone is optimal for the people there either. It's not just the government who benefits from censorship by maintaining control. They have a responsibility to maintain order there. Letting shit like this happen would be irresponsible. They know what they're doing (usually) & it's their country. They also had 4 revolutions last century. If people there get fed up with the government's efforts they'll overthrow them. Right now they're pretty stoked on their government & they see it in a much different light to how we generally view ours. More like the head of the family. Not so much like a controlling overlord as westerners often seem to view it as by way of projecting our values onto their society, and from our media who always portrays it this way.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"No no, my point is that your argument that they're missing out on something by not having access to some sites that are mostly in English is a bit moot because most there don't even understand English."
Yes, then why censor if most can't understand? Don't you think theres a reason why they have a firewall, why not just rely on people's inability to understand the language?
"No, that would be Chinese. English is 3rd or 2nd if you include those who can speak it as 2nd language."
Thats what I thought also, but the first answer I found was english is number one followed closely by Chinese. Doesn't really matter, we could say english is the most widely used around the world.
I meant can you give me examples of what it is that Chinese mainlanders are missing out on in terms of access to information. Real examples - Twitter? Wikipedia? Youtube?
I wont get into that because I know where it would lead. You telling me how it's all propaganda.
I'll just say what most wester countries have. It comes with the good and bad.
Trying to shelter people from the "wrongs" of the world isn't a good long-term strategy.
Not necessarily crumble but that doesn't mean open access to everything for everyone is optimal for the people there either.
So again, how has the rest of the world has coped with this western media onslaught propaganda, but for China it would be bad?
They also had 4 revolutions last century. If people there get fed up with the government's efforts they'll overthrow them.
Would it be a reach to say they are worried that history might repeat again, so naturally they want measures to try and keep social order.
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danman (Site Administrator)
Doesn't really matter, we could say english is the most widely used around the world.
I think it does matter because it touches on the point that China is not some little country being opressed in terms of knowledge of the nature of the world outside their borders. North Korea you may say that about. China is more like the EU in terms of diversity but it's much larger. Something like 100 million PRC citizens travel to forieign countries each year (pre-pandemic). They know much more about us than we do about them, generally. We are the ones being cutoff from their world more than vice versa IMO. All our mainstream media ever gives is a grim picture of the place, often packed full of lies, & never mentions what it's really like there for average people. Their mainstream media doesn't really give a shit about life on the ground outside China in general but it's better to be uninformed than misinformed, right? They're caught up in their own world, so to speak, as we are. Difference being that the info they generally receive about life outside their country is more accurate & fair whereas we get pumped full of politically-driven propaganda about that place. I'd prefer we weren't. Just look at the reactions I get on this site for simping for China. It's like talking to Pavlov's dogs seeing the reactions from certain members on here. Chinese don't harbour this kind of ill-conceived resentment about western countries, generally. There are some nationalists floating to the surface there because their country has been under attack for the past few years & also because it's getting stronger & they're getting emboldened. You really want the dumber natoinalists amongst them to see all the shit we talk about them? That's only gonna harm cultural relations between us, potentially do the opposite of what you seem to want as they'll become anti-West & reject all our shit completely.
I wont get into that because I know where it would lead. You telling me how it's all propaganda.
I'll just say what most wester countries have. It comes with the good and bad.
Trying to shelter people from the "wrongs" of the world isn't a good long-term strategy.
No I was asking because it's an obvious question to ask to get to the bottom of our disagreement. I don't think they need any of the sites that are blocked for the vague reason that you stated but you disagree so we can break it down to dig deeper. If you do start naming sites I may be able to tell you what they have as an alternative, or tell you why I think it's good they block it, or even agree that they shouldn't block that one.
Trying to shelter people from the "wrongs" of the world isn't a good long-term strategy.
If you could delete CNN from existence (and prevent something popping up to replace it) would you?
I would. They're full of shit & we don't need them pumping us full of lies about foreign countries. BBC World too. And Fox.
So again, how has the rest of the world has coped with this western media onslaught propaganda, but for China it would be bad?
There have been a bunch of revolutions & attempted rebellions that are encouraged & aided by the media in the hands of foreign agents. I'm not sure how much you know about psyops & don't want to explain it. My answer though is yes I think it would be bad. In Myanmar for instance barely anyone knows English & there's not much IT going on there so everyone uses Facebook because it works in their language. This means Facebook (a foriegn app/site with ties to a foreign govt) has massive control of the media the people in Myanmar consume. This is quite the potential security threat don't you think? Do you never notice how governments shutdown the internet when a rebellion is forming & wonder why? Do you know how Facebook became banned in China?
Would it be a reach to say they are worried that history might repeat again, so naturally they want measures to try and keep social order.
Of course. All governments are worried about revolution, that's part of their job.
Our disagreement could be that you believe everyone in the world should be able to access everything. This is idealistic because there are legal & security reasons for blocking stuff, some I think you'll agree are legit. Some we may both agree are sketchy & possibly even commercially driven which fucks with the spirit of WTO regulations. Culturally we may disagree in that I enjoy that they're operating more in their own world in parallel to ours. I like diversity & have I think more of a grasp of cultural imperialism than you do, maybe because I talk about this kind stuff all the time & have formed opinions on it based around exploring it thru convos. I don't like the idea of everyone around the world being culturally dominated by Western propaganda. We don't need more of this hypocritical liberal western ideology in the world IMO. You must admit at least that Western propaganda is extremely powerful. The fact it's not having much success in penetrating China is a good thing for all of us IMO.
/rant
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
If you could delete CNN from existence (and prevent something popping up to replace it) would you?
I would. They're full of shit & we don't need them pumping us full of lies about foreign countries. BBC World too. And Fox.
I'll keep it short because I think this encapsulates my point and where we disagree.
While I agree CNN is bullshit and we wouldn't lose anything if they shut down, I would still defend their right to broadcast that bullshit.
If we start to go down that route of censoring anything we don't like or don't agree with shit will go downhill and fast.
And who would decide what is ok and what is not? A small group of elites that have their own high ideals and agendas how society should be? I'd rather have 10 Alex Jones talking shit, than the alternative.
I freely admit, I don't know what is the best way to run a society, but limiting freedom of speech and information is not one of the.
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danman (Site Administrator)
If we start to go down that route of censoring anything we don't like or don't agree with shit will go downhill and fast.
You're right, this is where we disagree & I think we'll go around in circles discussing general ideology ... You could name some sites that you think shouldn't be banned there & we could discuss pros/cons of them. Maybe we'll agree on some?
We do agree that everyone can access everything...*ideally*. We don't live in an ideal world though, we live in one with power struggles from the very bottom of society up to the most powerful forces in the world, both between & within them. This puts security concerns into the equation & if another society wants to place more value on social order than we do, that's fine by me. I wanna see what cool shit they can come up with, if any. Respecting our right to run stuff how we like is about all I ask. Trading with them is a bonus.
If you're right & they're being negatively impacted by too much censorship then they'll either tweak things or suffer the consequences. This is a lesson China's learned more than once in their history - cutting themselves off too much from outside world can cause problems. It's up to them to find a balance that suits them though. Opening everything up at this point in their history & during the information age would be far too reckless IMO. Liberalizing their internet sometime around 2050 should be fine if things remain on track. There's no rush.
I don't know what is the best way to run a society, but limiting freedom of speech and information is not one of the.
Yeah neither do I but I've spent a fair amount of time trying to understand China's governance model, history, culture & concerns at national & people levels. Being cutoff from some foreign websites isn't high on the list of concerns as far as I can tell. This is evidenced by how they still use WeChat (an app platform like Facebook but better) even after years living overseas.
I wanna ask you though...
Do you believe in the concept of universal values as defined here?
Do you prefer that countries develop their own culture without being heavily influenced by the west?
eg. compare Tokyo/Soeul to the likes of Shanghai, Beijing or even more "Chinese" cities there.
I've been to these places by the way, not to gloat but I think it's relevant to my perspective. Korea & Japan have been westernized too much for my liking. For purely selfish reasons I like travelling to exotic places as a tourist. The more different the better, I find cities that have become like clones of western ones quite dull & samey.
Comments
(Site Administrator)
nah it's not FG but it's just as ridiculous & made for the same audience - ignorant bigots
peng shuai had an affair with a politician, wrote a social media post & deleted it, then western media & wta boss wouldn't let it go even after her requests for them to respect her privacy. It became trending & so this grifter made a video about it. I'll not bother watching it but I know it'll be full of misinfo.
videos by this grifter are only believable if you have both of these attributes:
1) you know fuck all about the issues discussed
2) you assume chinese govt is "evil"
even if you have these qualities though it shouldn't pass the smell test, it's not like political culture war grifting on youtube is a new thing & you can investigate stuff for yourself.
(Old Spike)
First one to answer, you don't work other then spreading propaganda do you?
You are a filty human beeing for protecting that rapist, absolutely filty
If you would have watched the video as your overlords forbade you you would see what it is about, but you dare not, don't worry, WW3 set you free.
You did not vote either, you will do that later right? Not to be suspicious
if you think you got us fooled forget about it.
And you lied about not living in China
This site is even funded by you...or should i say the CCP
(Short Spike)
(Old Spike)
If you string them along a little bit more yes indeed he does answer in real time. This is what he does he sits here and waits for opportunities to spread CCP propaganda. And not just here of course but there were likely be multiple places where he does this. It's just that here he's managed to capture an admin position. He probably plays that up to his payers as some kind of great accomplishment.
(dumb cunt)
Why won't he return to his reddit page? I'm sure it's a much larger audience with the potential of finding people who don't see his bullshit as......bullshit. Danman is just a CCP troll but site administrator on SN? WTF?
https://www.reddit.com/user/danmanjones
(Old Spike)
Please don't agree with me - you don't like Danman because he's eating up valuable propaganda space that should be entirely reserved for you. It's fasicnating to watch two paid propagandists who find themselves at cross purposes arguing with each other insincerely - these times are fascinating.
(Site Administrator)
@Dude that's just ridiculous ad hom + lies.
you asked for my thoughts on this grifter's video & I gave them.
now you act all butthurt & call me a child without addressing a single thing I said...
that's skeptoid-level shit .. childish insults + pure projection.
try arguing the topic if you're capable.
(Old Spike)
I think i did a pretty good job explaining everything, and how can you discuss the topic if you don't watch the video?
(Site Administrator)
I don't need to watch it to debunk it.
I've given you a breif account of what happened because I followed the story since day one, including reading her original social media post in a decent English translation & listening to neutral Chinese speakers interpret it to make sure the translation was legit & discuss the key detail that Western media got wrong - she never claimed she was assaulted in any way, it was a lie that western media told & relied on since the start. There's no excuse for getting it so wrong, it's just been another propaganda campaign based on disinformation that uninformed people will fall for.
She's been attending public events, has spoken to the IOC, even though she had no obligation to prove anything to any foreign org & gave an interview with a Singaporian outlet a couple weeks ago where she refuted the claim about "sexual assault" and said it was a misunderstanding. I say it was just another Western propaganda campaign aimed at undermining the image of the Chinese state & the propagandists don't give a single shit about Peng Shuai's safety like they pretend to... they actually caused her a big headache with this silly campaign.
She was never missing as the western media claimed so the entire premise of the video is disinfo from the start.
Are you going to stand by the video you posted & claim she was missing or slink away?
(Old Spike)
Look at how fast you reply, you don't acctualy work other then spreading propaganda, do you?
Just watch the video before you reply, that is how it works on spiked.
And why where you following it in the media, nothing bad ever happens in China....
This is how it works, you claim not to have seen the video, because you have no arguments, other then claiming to have followed it from day one, textbook manipulation by faking ignorance.
(Site Administrator)
I've just debunked the video & didn't need to watch it. Don't cry & resort to insults.
I never said nothing bad happened. She was preyed on by that married guy, it's highly unethical considering she's quite emotionally immature having been brought up in high performance tennis institutes as athletes in China tend to be. She was manipulated by that smooth talking old git who's twice her age. It's typical sleazy married old guy stuff & he did it right in front of his wife too so it's double sleaze. This isn't the same as sexual assault though & she was never missing. Those things are lies that western media used to hype the story & try & get a #MeToo thing going. It fell flat 2 weeks ago when she was interviewed as I've said... she flatly refuted the lies the MeToo shit relied on. She had an affair with a married man & fell in love, got all messed up about it when he didn't leave his wife for her, made a social media post & then deleted it. Western media doesn't give a fuck about respecting her privacy but pretends to care about her well-being based on an easily debunked lie they told. The situation's fubar, I don't care if you call me a propagandist for telling it like it is.
You should answer my question:
Are you going to stand by the video you posted & claim she was missing?
(Old Spike)
O Threatening... what are you going to do? delete the video or my account? :)
(Site Administrator)
do you feel threatened?
Why don't you answer the question. Will you stand by the premise of this video you uploaded or nah?
(Old Spike)
You just changed your reply, as an admin you can do that, your reply WAS threatening, since you changed it it makes me look crazy now, if you play it like that we are done talking
(Site Administrator)
I was still editing it when you replied & never made anything close to a threat, I can't remember exactly the words but it was basicalle what's below. If you're gonna accuse me of making a threat to avoid the question that's kinda lame IMO.
All I've been asking is:
Are you going to stand by the video you posted & claim she was missing?
edit: oh now I remember, I added to the question - "or are you gonna slink away" but thought that was too aggro so removed it. I meant will you just leave the thread hanging rather than address the question. Will you?
(Old Spike)
Stop it with the nazi shit, i only warn you once, you overstep the boundry now
you know when they scroll trough, noone is going to read it all you are pulling it, you are the one refusing to watch the video
(Site Administrator)
Nazi shit? Now you're just being weird. Take your meds.
Since you've refused to stand by the premise of the video you posted 4X now we can consider it debunked.
Better luck next time.
(Old Spike)
lol
(Old Spike)
The four wokeists who downvoted Dan should be agreeing with him here - they also don't think they need to watch source material to debunk it. Goes to show that it's just four people that are given a list of who to upvote and who to downvote and they just do that without any other thought whatsoever - just children directed by another child.
(sounds retarded)
(Old Spike)
(Old Spike)
Look at that hairline at 3:34. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a dude all this time.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Dan, if you want to prove you're not a CCP shill, then say one thing that the west does better than China.
(Site Administrator)
propaganda
music (some Chinese friends agree on this even though they're China patriots)
tv shows of every kind other than historical dramas
cars (not sure how much longer for)
we're richer so all the shit that comes with that - better SoL for middle class since more expendible income & more stuff per person, that's more a result of history rather than what we do today but it's still 'better'
comedy (subjective but I think objectively we're more advanced on things like standup comedy & some other forms)
rugby, basketball etc
in NZ at least corruption domestically is minimal .... west is a bit general, but the above counts for west in general... if we compare countries I could list more in terms of governance or education or some shit
now prove you're not a sinophobe - why do you accuse people of being a "CCP shill" if they debunk retarded propaganda about China or dare to say positive things about the place.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Wow, didn't believe you would actually do it, but a big lol at "propaganda".
Sure there's a shit load of it in the west, but at least you can publically speak your mind and criticize the government all you want. Again, the internet is relatively censor-free in the west, but I see that it's also becoming an issue here with "wokeism". Still no big firewall that chooses what you can see and what you can't.
I'm not a sinophobe. Nothing really against them.
What gets me is when you try to present a "better than your country" image with any lack of objectivity when it's obvious it's not all rainbows and sunshine. That goes for both sides.
(Site Administrator)
they do do some things better than our countries
just look at the deaths from covid in 2021 - they had 2 deaths and about 10,000 cases total for the year, mostly imported.
when western countries like US tries to criticize China on human rights grounds, it's purely political & when you look at the facts it's fucking laughable. I post some facts to refute this horseshit where West uses misinfo & weaponized empathy to demonize China. If you have facts to counter what I say, show them. We can get into it any time.
why a big lol at propaganda? do you think China is better at propaganda than the west?
do you think Chinese are more heavily indoctrinated than Americans for instance?
and you can't seriously believe China is better at foreign propaganda than the West.
Sure you can criticize the govt more loosely in the West, and there's a lot to criticize, but what does that achieve?
Does it change anything?
Criticisms of Chinese govt are possible but not slandering it recklessely. It's a different political system there. There are 92 million CPC members & they constantly find ways to improve things - this includes criticising existing systems. Intellectuals also write up criticisms of the govt & how loosely they can speak changes over time. They're in a more conservative patch at the moment. They get public feedback in a variety of ways, including protests when people get pissed off. They don't need agitators like Alex Jones causing unnecessary disorder & it can be dangerous in a system like theres. If people lose faith in the govt it can lead to revolution - they had 4 of them in 20th Century alone & the Taiping rebellion in late 19th C that killed about 30 million people.
I don't know why you're bothered about the ways they can criticize their own government... why is that important to you or make you assume they're doing domething "worse"?
Are liberal standards "better" than illiberal ones just because? No further thought required?
You sure you're not projecting the values you've been indoctrinated with on another people where they don't actually apply in the way you assume?
What if they're quite happy to let the 92 million member squad sort out governance while they focus on things that matter to them, they can complain any time they want through the right channels & if enough people complain shit often gets fixed for them. Their govt constantly surveys people too to make sure leaders are keeping people happy. It's different there & if you wanna make judgements about it you should really find out how it works first IMO.
you can have a scan over this doc to see how they think their version of democracy is going
here are some snippets of public opinion there....
1) They say they have about enough democracy
2) They say social media has a positive impact on their democracy
3) They want more regulation of social media, not less
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
You post stuff that makes it hard to take you seriously.
You're either naive, lack any objectivity, or a CCP shill.
"Just look at the deaths from covid in 2021 - they had 2"
Yeah I take it back, the west is far superior at propaganda. I mean if your going to lie, atleast try to give a reasonable number from a country of 1.4 billion people.
"why a big lol at propaganda? do you think China is better at propaganda than the west?"
As I said, I take it back. China isn't that good at propaganda, but excels at censoring.
"do you think Chinese are more heavily indoctrinated than Americans for instance?"
Possibly equally bad. Just different styles.
Again an open internet helps alleviate this as one can get some perspective from out side the bubble. Doesn't work for deeply patriotic types, but hey, the option is there.
"and you can't seriously believe China is better at foreign propaganda than the West."
They don't have to be, again because they are more closed society with state-controlled media and internet. What really matters is what your own people think.
"Sure you can criticize the govt more loosely in the West, and there's a lot to criticize, but what does that achieve?
Does it change anything?"
Slowly but surely it does. Even if it did nothing, the right to do so should always exist.
"Did you know Chinese people want more regulation of the internet & not less?"
Again this is what makes me think you are a shill or just extremely naive.
If you ask a person does he or she want more access to information, I don't think anyone would say no, unless they are deeply brainwashed.
BTW why are you using google services?
(Site Administrator)
> "Did you know Chinese people want more regulation of the internet & not less?"
> Again this is what makes me think you are a shill or just extremely naive.
I just showed you the data... did you not see it?
(I put it in as an edit)
> As I said, I take it back. China isn't that good at propaganda, but excels at censoring.
Western media also excels at this by training establishment journalists to omit uncomfy things & editors setting the tone with undisclosede ties to the government, especially govt spooks.
> Slowly but surely [criticism of govt] does. Even if it did nothing, the right to do so should always exist.
They have the right to criticise the govt in China. What gets censored is political organising, slander & sometimes legit criticisms which isn't great but can be a result of the way they do it. They outsource filtering of social media there to private orgs & their ass is on the line so they err on the side of caution & can be oversealous. This is a common complaint.
As for blocking foreign websites, I support this 100%. The information they're missing out on isn't crucial & when weighed next to the benefits to their country of doing this it's a net positive IMO. They don't get as much foreign disinfo or stupidity & they don't become so "westernized"/"internationalized" in their culture as much. The latter is more of an unintentional bonus but political culture of West is something they'd likely have wanted to keep out. It's pretty fucking toxic tbh. There's also the whole Western media agitating people in targeted countries that you may or may not be aware of. China more than anyone needs to keep that shit on lock, they're the number 1 target right now. Being penetrated by Western media would be a nightmare for their stability.
iirc there's more books written in Chinese than any other language
I think they'll be just fine without allowing every single foreign wesbite being readily available in their country.
if you disagree, tell me what it is you think they're missing out on that's so important?
Well I'd ask you to provide some evidence to backup this statement but we both know that you haven't a clue about China's covid response so what's the point?
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"I just showed you the data... did you not see it?"
Yes I saw the "data"
"Western media also excels at this by training establishment journalists to omit uncomfy things & editors setting the tone with undisclosede ties to the government, especially govt spooks."
Yes totally agree. Thats why open internet is important. MSM is slowly loosing it's grip because of it.
"As for blocking foreign websites, I support this 100%"
Why are you here then? Why are you using sites like YouTube?
"They don't get as much foreign disinfo or stupidity & they don't become so "westernized"/"internationalized" in their culture as much. The latter is more of an unintentional bonus but political culture of West is something they'd likely have wanted to keep out. It's pretty fucking toxic tbh."
I agree. It's mostly bullshit that nobody needs. STILL, the alternative of blocking access is far far worse.
There is also usefull info that would go with it if we started to go that route.
Though I don't think we would loose much if we closed FB & Twitter :)
"Well I'd ask you to provide some evidence to backup this statement but we both know that you haven't a clue about China's covid response so what's the point?"
You want me to post my propaganda to counter your propaganda?
No, I'm just using common sense.
If it was 500 000 deaths and I'd be like "Thats pretty damn low for a country of 1.4 billion but I guess they are doing something right"
(Site Administrator)
>Yes I saw the "data"
Are you going to pull the ultimate cope tactic & reject data because it doesn't fit your bias?
>Yes totally agree. Thats why open internet is important.
How does open internet change the manipulation of media? Doesn't it amplify it? You wanna see Tim Pools setting up in China repeating lame shit they hear in the media & whipping up ignorant chauvinism? Sadist!
>Why are you here then? Why are you using sites like YouTube?
This site isn't blocked in China, I was using it while I was there. I was using YouTube while I was there too but that was with a VPN, Mainly because I can't read Chinese so entertainment options are limited there for me. There's a bunch of Chinese who jump the GFW to see foreign media. Many find it crass & when it comes to reporting on their country it's an absolute joke. It actually increases nationalism there when they see how we lie our ass off about their country & act so hostile towards it. IMO Chinese people tend to understand the US better than Americans do, I don't expect you to agree, this is just my opinion based on hearing many opinions of Chinese on the topic. They're not idiots & can get info they need to stay informed.
>the alternative of blocking access is far far worse.
I don't agree. Each to their own I suppose. What's more important is whether Chinese agree or not. Enough of them jump the GFW to see what it's like on the blocked websites & very few bother with it. There are some annoying liberals there who fall for the horseshit on western media but they're outnumbered, thankfully.
>I'm just using common sense.
Nah, you're using assumptions. It's not impossible to do what they've done. It just takes extreme measures & a lot of effort at every level, as well as a copmliant population. They have enough trust in their government that basically everyone goes along with it. They've been enjoying the freedom they have as a result of keeping COVID out & look at most other countries, especially the Western ones in utter disbelief at how they've handled it. A bit like you can't believe how they've handled it, the difference being you have no clue about their measures.
>If it was 500 000 deaths and I'd be like "Thats pretty damn low for a country of 1.4 billion but I guess they are doing something right"
Citing a number like that makes you seem even more clueless than I gave you credit for. And you're the one saying THEY have a problem accessing information. Fucking clown world.
According to your hot take the Chinese government is competent enough to silence all possible evidence of hundreds of thousands of COVID deaths (there would be shitloads) but incompetent enough to let that happen.
>BTW why are you using google services?
Do you mean Youtube? I use it because there's content on it that I wanna see. I'm a monolingual Westerner. That's what we do isn't it?
Is there some reason I shouldn't be using it?
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Are you going to pull the ultimate cope tactic & reject data because it doesn't fit your bias?"
I didn't see a poll about how free the internet should be, thats what I was talking about.
Don't really get what wanting to regulate social media means. Regulate how? Does it mean they want the state to control what's being said on social media? If so, the problem is even deeper.
"his site isn't blocked in China, I was using it while I was there. I was using YouTube while I was there too but that was with a VPN, Mainly because I can't read Chinese so entertainment options are limited there for me."
You didn't really answer my question. Why are you consuming toxic western content? You preach how limiting access for the Chinese is a good thing, but why aren't you following suite? This site is nothing but YT videos and YT is banned in china as far as I know.
"Nah, you're using assumptions."
That I am. 2 deaths is still laughable.
Curious how you are super critical of western media, but all Chinese info gets a free pass.
Try using the same critical thinking for both sides.
(Site Administrator)
I agree it's not clear what regulation meant in the questions but it does mean government intervention at the least. My guess would be that they want to regulate the monopolistic practices of the big tech companies there, make sure their data isn't being abused, make sure tech billionaires don't get too big for their boots & the 'problem' you described as 'deeper'. As for this 'deeper problem', there are those in the West who also want the govt to silence more people who annoy them, or who they see as too reckless or whatever.
Chinese tend to value social stability higher than we do ... it's a different country with a different culture, remember? They also have very high trust in their govt at the moment, unlike us & they look at it differently because it is quite a different system. Are you sure you're not projecting your own values on them in a crude way that's ultimately misguided?
There definitely are censorship issues there that piss people off at times, like there are here in the West. Do you know about the kind of complaints people there have around censorship?
- the latest one is sexy skins being removed from the CN Genshin Impact server, it was the result of feminists there brigading the game on social media to get their way. Sound familiar?
...it's their latest 'genocide' according to reddit
> You didn't really answer my question. Why are you consuming toxic western content? You preach how limiting access for the Chinese is a good thing, but why aren't you following suite? This site is nothing but YT videos and YT is banned in china as far as I know.
Your question wasn't very clear but I thought that's what you may have meant.
Western content isn't toxic to me because I have good bullshit detectors. This came from spending a shitload of time figuring out the nature of the lies we're fed here in the West. I mainly use it because it's the platform that houses most of the content in my language. I don't speak any other language... do I have much choice?
I'd support cutting off Youtube from NZ, at least until we can tax it & own our own data. It's a digital + cultural sovereignty issue to me. I'm also not a fan of the streaming services like Netflix/Amazon. I don't like American media being so prominent on our airwaves. If we cut some of it out we'll find alternatives & maybe produce more local content - this would cause less American culture & propaganda indoctrinating people here. The curious among us would still share the good shit regardless of what the govt does.
For a country like China or a place like EU I think it's an easier sell because they have the means to produce more local content. But only one of the above has the balls to tell US big tech to adhere to their law or fuck off. In China it's fine, they already have a huge entertainment industry, made by & for their culture & in the language they speak. The West is going to be hard pressed to prevent Chinese culture dominating East Asia in the future but they're trying with the billions they're spending on propaganda each year that explicitly aims to undermine Chinese influence over there, mostly with the kind of misinfo fear porn propaganda they target us with. Are you glad to see yellow peril alive & well thanks to mass-manipulation via corrupt media & big tech algorithms?
> 2 deaths is still laughable.
Yeah I get why you'd think that. It's quite amazing how they deal with it. It's like that state was made to pwn this virus seeing the way they've handled it. I'm just glad NZ followed their lead & put the lives of our citizens first... it was the optimum way to keep the economy chugging away too so it really made sense to have a zero-covid strategy in the end. We've enjoyed way more freedom than a lot of other Western countries during COVID, as has China. The economic figures don't lie either. A small problem we have here is that we've spent a lot of our national reserves on dealing with it & some of the spending has been sub-optimal. We don't have the same kind of resources at our disposal as they do, not just money, people & systems too.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
" My guess would be that they want to regulate the monopolistic practices of the big tech companies there, make sure their data isn't being abused, make sure tech billionaires don't get too big for their boots & the 'problem' you described as 'deeper'. As for this 'deeper problem', there are those in the West who also want the govt to silence more people who annoy them, or who they see as too reckless or whatever."
Yeah, in this scenario tech billionairs is changed for the state. Someone is always watching and collecting data. I'll give you that at least it's done domestically. Anyway, if this is what Chinese are worried about, nobody would be forcing then to use the western social media IF it was available. It's always a choice. Like many people are fleeing FB because of privacy concerns.
"Chinese tend to value social stability higher than we do ... it's a different country with a different culture, remember?"
I get it, they are brought up differently. It begs the question if you don't know things could be different it's hard to even question it. The same applies to the west to a good extent.
That's why I think a free internet is important as it atleast gives a glimpse of how things are done differently in other places. For good or worse. The CCP is mainly concerned with outside influences and ideas seeping into their culture, also censoring their own history that is unfarovable to the state. It's all about keeping control of the people and keeping the social stability in place.
I remeber the word of the Chinese business partner that I sold the VPN to.
"Don't worry, I will not spread any propaganda" That was kinda revealing into the mindset of a chinese man.
"Western content isn't toxic to me because I have good bullshit detectors. This came from spending a shitload of time figuring out the nature of the lies we're fed here in the West. I mainly use it because it's the platform that houses most of the content in my language. I don't speak any other language... do I have much choice?"
You'd be pissed if someone told you what site you can visit? Well, the Chinese can't really even complain because they don't know what's been kept from them. I'm sure they would, if they blocked them after being available.
This is how they are brought up, so it's hard to complain when you don't know any better.
Anyway, I think it's hypocritical if you support denying internet access "to protect their culture", while you keep using said sites. It's the old "Do as I say, not as I do". High ideals that you set up for other, but don't participate yourself. I'm sure the chinese would quickly develop their own bullshit detectors just as the rest of us.
As for the language barrier, the same goes for the chinese, as far as I know english isn't that prevalent and most wouldn't even get anything out of it. Big part of the language barrier is that China has always been quite closed, but I'm sure they like it that way. It's a great filter if you only know chinese.
"I'd support cutting off Youtube from NZ, at least until we can tax it & own our own data."
I don't think you'd get much support from the general public for this. Would never work.
(Site Administrator)
> It's all about keeping control of the people and keeping the social stability in place
Those are 2 of the main reasons things are filtered there. There are others but those are good enough, no? It's their country & they can run it how they wish, right?
Let's flip this around for a sec...
You have access to Weibo, Bilibili, WeChat, iQiyi, & a host of other Chinese internet platforms.
How many do you use?
Below are the major global streaming platforms...
Does it look like they're missing out or does it look like blocking overseas platforms from having free reign there has led to them developing their own shit?
Have you ever used a Chinese streaming service? Why/why not?
> I think it's hypocritical if you support denying internet access "to protect their culture", while you keep using said sites
I don't mind some curious & capable people jumping the firewall, nor does the Chinese govt based on how they don't really even enforce their own bans on foreign internet.
You're looking past what I said about political agitation. The West are experts in this & would be going deep on China's internet if they could right now. I think the liberal v illiberalism debate comes down to the conditions at hand. Right now China is about to bust through a centuries-long western domination of the world & we're gonna be throwing everything at them we can, including sophisticated media campaigns aimed at agitating their people. Political stability there is no joke, millions can die if things get fucky. In the future when the coast is clear I support more liberal policies with their internet & culture in general tbh. For now it's time to grind through & get their economy into an untouchable position where it should be without unncessary disturbance.
What is it that's being filtered from the internet in China that you think they really should have access to?
Do you honestly believe they're more ignorant of their own history than we are of ours?
Do you think they're more ignorant about the West than we are of China?
What is it they should be more informed on that their internet filtering prevents?
Would they be better off if they saw more of the crazy dumb shit we say about them?
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Those are 2 of the main reasons things are filtered there. There are others but those are good enough, no? It's their country & they can run it how they wish, right?"
Sure they can run it anyway they want. My point is that it's done by limiting and cencoring information.
If you can't see how some might see that as problematic / authoritarian, I don't think we have anything to talk about here. You seem to like the freedom of information you have, I'd suspect they would too.
"
Let's flip this around for a sec...
You have access to Weibo, Bilibili, WeChat, iQiyi, & a host of other Chinese internet platforms.
How many do you use?"
One guy at work uses wechat to get quick info on orders and other stuff. Thats about as close I've come.
What your point? Because I don't use their stuff, why would they use ours?
"Below are the major global streaming platforms...
Does it look like they're missing out or does it look like blocking overseas platforms from having free reign there has led to them developing their own shit?"
I've never used any of those services. But it's not about shitty streaming services, it's about access to information.
"You're looking past what I said about political agitation."
I wonder how the rest of the world has coped with this western media onslaught propaganda machine.
Is Chinas social and political structure so fragile that it would crumble??
If so, again the problems go deeper, but I don't think thats the case, it's just about control.
"What is it that's being filtered from the internet in China that you think they really should have access to?"
Everything the rest of the world has too.
(Site Administrator)
Yeah I see your point, All countries censor information & have their own official version of history. And there are always ways people communicate unofficial history also. Our govt & media does things different to theirs. The result is that they know more about us than we know about them and they have a better understanding of their own history & civilization than we do about ours.
Yes. That's my point. You wouldn't get much use from it because you can't read or write Chinese. Similarly not very many Chinese can read English. This alone kinda debunks a lot of your argument don't you think?
Also, do you feel like you're missing out because you don't access information written in Chinese eg. stuff on Baidu Baike?
Should everyone in the world make sure they can access sites that have their HQ in Silicon Valley & are written in English to prevent you feeling bad for them?
They should all open their shit up for any kind of foreign meddling we throw at them via the internet, huh?
And let their citizens digital data just fly away as if ownership & sovereignty isn't a thing, straight to the NSA servers to be have algorithms & analytics run on it to enhance the bots that go to work on their population, fomenting instability & social unrest when desired. Cool plan - let foreigners control propaganda your citizens consume when they openly call you a threat to the world order they've been running for centuries & will do anything to trip you up.
Such as?
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Your argument makes no sense. It's ok to censor the internet because our people don't understand english?
Of course they censor it because some do speak english, or information that they don't like no matter the language.
I would gestimate that compared to most countries, chinas english is poor, but with the huge population that would amount to a shit load of people that do understand it well. English after all is the most spoken language in the world.
I live in Finland. Take a wild guess why I'm fairly good at english. Don't judge my grammar though :)
I'd prefer it was all blue.
The same access as NZ for example. According to the map above, you're better off than my country.
btw you missed this:
I wonder how the rest of the world has coped with this western media onslaught propaganda machine.
Is Chinas social and political structure so fragile that it would crumble??
If so, again the problems go deeper, but I don't think thats the case, it's just about control.
(Site Administrator)
> Your argument makes no sense. It's ok to censor the internet because our people don't understand english?
No no, my point is that your argument that they're missing out on something by not having access to some sites that are mostly in English is a bit moot because most there don't even understand English. Academics there have access to everything as do some business people & others. There's also plenty who unofficially have access via VPNs (around 15% of the population there use VPNs to hop the GFW last I checked but don't use it a lot because there's not much they want from foreign sites). If you're worried they don't have access to Western thought you needn't. The intelligentsia there are quite familiar with Western thought & can pick bits up that they want to utilize.
> English after all is the most spoken language in the world
No, that would be Chinese. English is 3rd or 2nd if you include those who can speak it as 2nd language.
> I'd prefer it was all blue.
in an ideal world, sure. In the real world there are many considerations & each country has the right to choose how they run things, in theory.
> Such as? ...
I meant can you give me examples of what it is that Chinese mainlanders are missing out on in terms of access to information. Real examples - Twitter? Wikipedia? Youtube?
> Is Chinas social and political structure so fragile that it would crumble?
> If so, again the problems go deeper, but I don't think thats the case, it's just about control.
Not necessarily crumble but that doesn't mean open access to everything for everyone is optimal for the people there either. It's not just the government who benefits from censorship by maintaining control. They have a responsibility to maintain order there. Letting shit like this happen would be irresponsible. They know what they're doing (usually) & it's their country. They also had 4 revolutions last century. If people there get fed up with the government's efforts they'll overthrow them. Right now they're pretty stoked on their government & they see it in a much different light to how we generally view ours. More like the head of the family. Not so much like a controlling overlord as westerners often seem to view it as by way of projecting our values onto their society, and from our media who always portrays it this way.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Yes, then why censor if most can't understand? Don't you think theres a reason why they have a firewall, why not just rely on people's inability to understand the language?
Thats what I thought also, but the first answer I found was english is number one followed closely by Chinese. Doesn't really matter, we could say english is the most widely used around the world.
I wont get into that because I know where it would lead. You telling me how it's all propaganda.
I'll just say what most wester countries have. It comes with the good and bad.
Trying to shelter people from the "wrongs" of the world isn't a good long-term strategy.
So again, how has the rest of the world has coped with this western media onslaught propaganda, but for China it would be bad?
Would it be a reach to say they are worried that history might repeat again, so naturally they want measures to try and keep social order.
(Site Administrator)
I think it does matter because it touches on the point that China is not some little country being opressed in terms of knowledge of the nature of the world outside their borders. North Korea you may say that about. China is more like the EU in terms of diversity but it's much larger. Something like 100 million PRC citizens travel to forieign countries each year (pre-pandemic). They know much more about us than we do about them, generally. We are the ones being cutoff from their world more than vice versa IMO. All our mainstream media ever gives is a grim picture of the place, often packed full of lies, & never mentions what it's really like there for average people. Their mainstream media doesn't really give a shit about life on the ground outside China in general but it's better to be uninformed than misinformed, right? They're caught up in their own world, so to speak, as we are. Difference being that the info they generally receive about life outside their country is more accurate & fair whereas we get pumped full of politically-driven propaganda about that place. I'd prefer we weren't. Just look at the reactions I get on this site for simping for China. It's like talking to Pavlov's dogs seeing the reactions from certain members on here. Chinese don't harbour this kind of ill-conceived resentment about western countries, generally. There are some nationalists floating to the surface there because their country has been under attack for the past few years & also because it's getting stronger & they're getting emboldened. You really want the dumber natoinalists amongst them to see all the shit we talk about them? That's only gonna harm cultural relations between us, potentially do the opposite of what you seem to want as they'll become anti-West & reject all our shit completely.
No I was asking because it's an obvious question to ask to get to the bottom of our disagreement. I don't think they need any of the sites that are blocked for the vague reason that you stated but you disagree so we can break it down to dig deeper. If you do start naming sites I may be able to tell you what they have as an alternative, or tell you why I think it's good they block it, or even agree that they shouldn't block that one.
If you could delete CNN from existence (and prevent something popping up to replace it) would you?
I would. They're full of shit & we don't need them pumping us full of lies about foreign countries. BBC World too. And Fox.
There have been a bunch of revolutions & attempted rebellions that are encouraged & aided by the media in the hands of foreign agents. I'm not sure how much you know about psyops & don't want to explain it. My answer though is yes I think it would be bad. In Myanmar for instance barely anyone knows English & there's not much IT going on there so everyone uses Facebook because it works in their language. This means Facebook (a foriegn app/site with ties to a foreign govt) has massive control of the media the people in Myanmar consume. This is quite the potential security threat don't you think? Do you never notice how governments shutdown the internet when a rebellion is forming & wonder why? Do you know how Facebook became banned in China?
Of course. All governments are worried about revolution, that's part of their job.
Our disagreement could be that you believe everyone in the world should be able to access everything. This is idealistic because there are legal & security reasons for blocking stuff, some I think you'll agree are legit. Some we may both agree are sketchy & possibly even commercially driven which fucks with the spirit of WTO regulations. Culturally we may disagree in that I enjoy that they're operating more in their own world in parallel to ours. I like diversity & have I think more of a grasp of cultural imperialism than you do, maybe because I talk about this kind stuff all the time & have formed opinions on it based around exploring it thru convos. I don't like the idea of everyone around the world being culturally dominated by Western propaganda. We don't need more of this hypocritical liberal western ideology in the world IMO. You must admit at least that Western propaganda is extremely powerful. The fact it's not having much success in penetrating China is a good thing for all of us IMO.
/rant
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
I'll keep it short because I think this encapsulates my point and where we disagree.
While I agree CNN is bullshit and we wouldn't lose anything if they shut down, I would still defend their right to broadcast that bullshit.
If we start to go down that route of censoring anything we don't like or don't agree with shit will go downhill and fast.
And who would decide what is ok and what is not? A small group of elites that have their own high ideals and agendas how society should be? I'd rather have 10 Alex Jones talking shit, than the alternative.
I freely admit, I don't know what is the best way to run a society, but limiting freedom of speech and information is not one of the.
(Site Administrator)
You're right, this is where we disagree & I think we'll go around in circles discussing general ideology ... You could name some sites that you think shouldn't be banned there & we could discuss pros/cons of them. Maybe we'll agree on some?
We do agree that everyone can access everything...*ideally*. We don't live in an ideal world though, we live in one with power struggles from the very bottom of society up to the most powerful forces in the world, both between & within them. This puts security concerns into the equation & if another society wants to place more value on social order than we do, that's fine by me. I wanna see what cool shit they can come up with, if any. Respecting our right to run stuff how we like is about all I ask. Trading with them is a bonus.
If you're right & they're being negatively impacted by too much censorship then they'll either tweak things or suffer the consequences. This is a lesson China's learned more than once in their history - cutting themselves off too much from outside world can cause problems. It's up to them to find a balance that suits them though. Opening everything up at this point in their history & during the information age would be far too reckless IMO. Liberalizing their internet sometime around 2050 should be fine if things remain on track. There's no rush.
Yeah neither do I but I've spent a fair amount of time trying to understand China's governance model, history, culture & concerns at national & people levels. Being cutoff from some foreign websites isn't high on the list of concerns as far as I can tell. This is evidenced by how they still use WeChat (an app platform like Facebook but better) even after years living overseas.
I wanna ask you though...
Do you believe in the concept of universal values as defined here?
Do you prefer that countries develop their own culture without being heavily influenced by the west?
eg. compare Tokyo/Soeul to the likes of Shanghai, Beijing or even more "Chinese" cities there.
I've been to these places by the way, not to gloat but I think it's relevant to my perspective. Korea & Japan have been westernized too much for my liking. For purely selfish reasons I like travelling to exotic places as a tourist. The more different the better, I find cities that have become like clones of western ones quite dull & samey.