Kind of swept under the rug for something so obvious.
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
US census does NOT recognize Arabs as a race. Whoopie would agree that this is not apartheid. I mean really, jews came out of the same region, right? Are they not the same "race"? Kinda blows up their own definition they gave.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> jews came out of the same region, right?
no not really. The vast majority of jews in Palestine are descendents of those who migrated there post-wwi, they really ramped up the migration in the wake of wwii. In 1912 only around 5% of Palestine was Jewish & it'd been that way for centuries. Under Israeli law, Arabs are treated as a race/ethnic group & discriminated against in a way that deems the system they have as apartheid & in many ways more brutal than the apartheid system of South Africa.
Amnesty International is a British org & on the British census they list ethnic groups, one of which is Arab. I don't know what difference this makes though, it's kind of a silly talking point IMO. For all intents & purposes the situation in Palestine is one of racial colonization, genocide & apartheid aimed squarely at Arab Palestinians, with the agenda of driving them out of their homeland to make way for a "Jewish state". It's been found to be an apartheid state by reputable human rights orgs (with lawyers who specialize in theis stuff) with lengthy justifications & real evidence for why it meets this legal definition.
You can read a summary of why Israel is an apartheid state here
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
Again, it gets to the definition of race. How specific? How narrow are you going to get with your definitions? Jews originated and came from the middle east, the same region that they now have their country there and for the same reason they chose that location. Its like saying the African Americans that founded Liberia are not really Africans because they came from America. But if you have a narrow definition of race then you can start to make the argument Jews are a separate race than Palestinians and committing apartheid, according to their definition.
If an Asian moves to Europe or Africa or Americas how long before they are no longer an Asian race? If Middle Eastern people are a race, separate from Caucasians, then Jews would remain Middle Eastern no matter how long they lived in northern Europe.
I feel like you are not following me here. I dont know how else to explain this so you understand.
If you have a broad view of race then there can only be 3, African, European, and Asian. All others are a mix and descendants of those 3.
I ran into a woman from the Saami people once and asked what she was all about. Told me they were the original people of the artic in Finland and Sweden. Looked pretty white to me. Couldnt really understand that one. I asked her so where did the Swedes and Fines come from after you settled there first? How long ago was that? Must have been thousands of years ago. Then she just ignored all that and started talking about how they didnt agree to form a government with Sweden and Finland and we left it at that.
People migrate, if you go back far enough we all are related.
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danman (Site Administrator)
They do fit the common western description of race in several ways if you want to get into that...
In both the US & Israel being Jewish is hereditary - in Israeli law it requires your mother to be a Jewess & in American law it can be mother or father.
The name they gave their colonial enterprize - Israel - is the name given to Jacob in the Torah. This is one of their most important pattriarchs who they say they're descended from. So even in their religion they describe themselves as a race - they self-identify as one basically.
IMO a better term than 'race' would be 'ethnic group' or what I think fits best is 'tribe'. Another one you might use is 'nation'. In the practical sense, as I've said in the prev comment, within the context of Palestine, Jews very much are acting as a race of people. It's really quite similar to 'white' peope's colonization of North America. Whites are considered a race in the US & are made up of a range of Europeans & who were added along the way. Same kinda thing. Actually it's closer to South Africa's history than that of the US in terms of racial policies.
They don't absolutely fit into the American definition of race but 'race' isn't a technical term according to modern experts, which leaves the Rome Statute definition of apartheid needing a bit of an update. I understand that 'race' is a pretty fuzzy term & Jews don't fit squarely in the American definition of race but that doesn't mean Israel isn't practicing apartheid. Why would HRW release a 213-page report detailing Israel's crimes against humanity & define it as apartheid in no uncertain terms unless they were sure?
edit: kek
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n0val33t (Old Spike)
Not touching this with a 10 feet pole!
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
This is a yes and no issue that is very complicated.
1. Palestine is not a legitimate country.
They had no king before yassir Arafat.
They had no official currency.
They had no capital of their own when they settled it.
This problem is a U.N. construct . The other arab nations have an inside agreement to refuse refugees (Except Jordan) and to constantly smear Israel in every manner of problems. They need this problem to continue so that they can demonize Israel because Ancient reasons. Arafat refused every single deal ever offered, so that he could exacerbate this at the cost of Palestinian suffering. What a great king...
2. Where Israel is at fault. Their government has been subverted by Khazars. (Fake jews) They masquerade as Israeli leaders while in fact working as U.N. agents. They purposefully spread Palestinian hate, pass policies that impoverish and hurt Palestinians, and maniuplate the education system to raise new generations of Israelies to oppress Palestinians.
This is a problem that needs to be adressed in order to stop the suffering of both nations.
The other Arab nations must be pressured to allow the Palestinians to seek refuge. Land for peace did not work, Co existance does not work, citizenship will not work. Peaceful exodus is the only ammicable option.
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danman (Site Administrator)
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sato (Old Spike)
all complete horseshit. it was and is as much of a country as anywhere else. if you just didn't happen to write down france as being a country in the UN register of nations that wouldn't mean it's not a country. arguments that palestine is not a country are purely administrative and nothing more.
here's a palestinian coin, from when the british ruled the area. before that what you think they just never bought or sold anything?
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
That's a Palestinian POUND. Not an independant currency.
Anything written or proclaimed by the U.N. is not legitimate. They are a Rockefeller construct. Working for big bank and nothing else. All the National leaders that serve big bank continue to prop up it's claimed legitimacy, but it's "reverence" is completely undeserved.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
This is not "complicated" at all!
The answer is yes, they run an apartheid state and not only supress one part of the population but also illegally occupy land that is not theirs.
End of story.
They only succeed because they have allies in the US and other western nations due to their sect having enormous financial influence over there.
Any and all criticism is silenced almost immediately as being "anti semitic".
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sato (Old Spike)
exactly. they have clearly written laws that are different for jews and arabs, mostly involving land ownership, marriage, and welfare. how can anyone legitimately claim they have different laws for different races but are not apartheid? good point on "land that is not theirs" also. apologists like to say palestine isn't a state, but then ignore the fact that israel is a state with defined borders and the land they are taking is outside those borders.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
Actually Israel has less land than their real borders. Abraham bought the land over 4000 years ago and built land claims that marked their territories.
What Israel repossessed breifly after the 6 day war was much closer to the original claim. The U.N. made them give most of it back.
Palestine was comprised mostly of Syrian squatters. Syria should take them back. That's their home. Nobody needs to be homeless, the other arab nations are keeping them in a tent city.
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danman (Site Administrator)
I thought skeptoid was the most retarded user on here but clearly it's you.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
Are you claiming Abraham never bought the land?
Are you claiming that Israel sold it to Palestine?
Are you claiming that squatting land makes it yours?
Are claiming that being conquored and forcefully displaced is a legitimate handing over of a nation? If so, then Israel taking back their rightfully purchased property is just as legitimate, and they at least had the reasonable nature to try and negotiate with them in the past. And it's Israel's fault they didn't accept a single offer?
Is it just that Israel is the only people on the planet that don't deserve a country of their own because ???
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danman (Site Administrator)
> Are you claiming Abraham never bought the land?
yes
Not that it makes any difference whatsoever since the right to land by conquest was in play until last century & the Levant was taken by a bunch of empires in the region before, during & after Heebs migrated there & were finally kicked out. At the time they revolted & most were subsequently booted out the Roman Empire controlled & administered it. Later in history the Ottoman Empire had recognized soveriegnty over the land for centuries until WWI, during which the Brits captured it & went on to do what you might call "squatting" ... and in their usual way did backroom deals, allowing Jews to migrate in there, then they left in 1947 & the Jews began a campaign of genocide against the locals that persists to this day.
^ These are the historical facts. I dunno what you're talking about tbh, you're mixing mythology into your argument like some weirdo religious zealot with no grasp on land ownership norms or history.
> Are you claiming that squatting land makes it yours?
no
> Are claiming that being conquored and forcefully displaced is a legitimate handing over of a nation?
no. You are in your support of the zionist cause - it's a colonial project which you obviously endorse, using voodoo mumbo jumbo rationale & a lack of understanding/acknowledgement of history.
> Is it just that Israel is the only people on the planet that don't deserve a country of their own because ???
There are more than 13,000-24,000 peoples in the world and around 200 countries. Your question is retarded, even ignoring your use of the term "Israel" to describe those people... less than half of whom live inside Palestine in what most people refer to as "Israel".
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
"For the sake of argument, yes."
One of the most ancient texts we have The Torah, acknowledges the purchase.
Think that's national or religious bias? The Quaran also recognizes Abraham's legitimacy.
The right to conquest is still in play, always will be. time doesn't change that. It's the bottom line that is the final decider. If you can defend it's yours.
Babylon Took it from Israel. They took it back. Rome took it from Israel, England laid claim far after, handed it to squatters, then Israel united and took it back.
"You are in your support of the zionist cause" I don't believe in Jewish supremacy. I believe every legitimate nation has a right to a place to call their own.
"Later in history the Ottoman Empire had recognized soveriegnty over the land until WWII when the Brits were doing what you might call "squatting" and in their usual way did backroom deals & allowed Jews to migrate in there,"
The Ottoman empire was one of the most oppressive empires of all time. England too. At least some British leaders believed that Israel deserved a home. Whether or not this was part of the elites plan to foement the impending WWIII early by creating a political problem is anyones guess. But, the Jews are a legitimate race of people, and they deserve their nation.
"even ignoring your use of the term "Israel" to describe those people... less than half of whom live inside Palestine in what most people refer to as "Israel"."
That's still not their home. They also use conquest, by passive agressive occupation. Jews deals with violence in their alley ways every day by said occupiers.
Many of the people living there are orderly and able to coexist. Some are not.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> One of the most ancient texts we have The Torah, acknowledges the purchase.
Dude we don't even know who wrote the Torah, Shirley you can't be serious.
I asked for original document - IE a verified deed to the land, not mythological propaganda.
> The right to conquest is still in play, always will be
Familiarize yourself with the Treaty of Westphalia & the UN Charter.
The Torah does not trump these documents. Far from it.
> Babylon Took it from Israel. They took it back.
No, according to your own legends it was Cyrus who defeated Babylon & settled Heebs in the Levant.
> I don't believe in Jewish supremacy.
clearly you do since you cite far-fetched Jewish scripture to claim ownership of land for Jews & dismiss the rights of the inhabitants who've lived there for centuries.
> The Ottoman empire was one of the most oppressive empires of all time
compared to the how the Jews behave in Palestine they were saints but why are you moralizing?
> Many of the people living their are orderly and able to coexist. Some are not.
clearly the Jews are not able to coexist but since you seem so extremely biased & wilfully ignorant of the history of the place let's not go litigate the atrocities & agenda of the Jews in Palestine since mid 20th Century.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
"I asked for original document - IE a verified deed to the land, not mythological propaganda."
Before paper or even literacy was wide spread, you built land claims. Abraham built 4 altars that marked the territories.
"Familiarize yourself with the Treaty of Westphalia & the UN Charter.
The Torah does not trump these documents. Far from it."
The sword trumps every document.
Wave a document in the face of a man with a gun and see what has the final say.
"Babylon Took it from Israel. They took it back.
No, according to your own legends it was Cyrus who defeated Babylon & settled Heebs in the Levant."
I have to brush up on that part, perhaps Israel did not have a second ownership between babylon and Rome. Still doesn't change it was Israel's first. And is now.
"clearly you do since you cite far-fetched Jewish scripture to claim ownership of land for Jews & dismiss the rights of the inhabitants who've lived there for centuries."
Jews are no better than anyone else. Israel is their home, the Palestinians need to leave. The real tradgedy is that arab nations won't let the Palestinians leave, and a jewish mafia is running the Israeli government under U.N. direction to commit atrocities against a trapped people.
> The Ottoman empire was one of the most oppressive empires of all time
"compared to the how the Jews behave in Palestine they were saints but why are you moralizing?"
Infinitely more body bags and religious persecution as well as human rights abuses over centuries and centuries.
"clearly the Jews are not able to coexist"
If that were true as a whole they would have blown up the dome of the rock, rebuilt the original temple and removed all other faiths from their region.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> The sword trumps every document.
must be nice being safe there in America, home of the most notorious war criminals since WWII.
wonder what you'd think if you spent an afternoon on the wrong end of "the sword".
> I have to brush up on that part...
that, and a million other things.
> If that were true as a whole they would have blown up the dome of the rock, rebuilt the original temple and removed all other faiths from their region.
what makes you think that's not part of their plan & are just waiting for the right moment?
srsly you have to be insane to argue that Zionist leaders in Palestine have peaceful coexistence on their agenda. You have access to the same information I do. Educate yourself sometime, jeez.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
I'm in Canada dude. I'm on the wrong side of oppression daily. I never expected a truck protest to happen and rally the citizens. I expected to oppose this perverse system solitary, unarmed, and atomized.
Even with that against me, I will not give up my freedom. This movement was a bonus. And it's not the end, but only the beginning.
"that, and a million other things"
Don't we all. No one is an encyclopedia.
"what makes you think that's not part of their plan & are just waiting for the right moment?
srsly you have to be insane to argue that Zionist leaders in Palestine have peaceful coexistence on their agenda. You have access to the same information I do. Educate yourself sometime, jeez."
I don't doubt that. Every nation has a national faith. Christians don't do very well spreading their faith in Arab countries. Much worse happens to them than even the worst case scenario we have outlined.
I don't believe in bloodshed outside of self defense. With that said, that mosque has no right to be there, it is a mockery to the history of Israel and Judah. And was built as such.
A preplanned, passive aggressive excuse to cause a world wide holy war if it was removed. And it's existance upon the site of the holy temple provokes the Jews every day, with the looming threat of violence if that provocation dare be dismantled.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> I don't believe in bloodshed outside of self defense
Zionist leaders do.
> With that said, that mosque has no right to be there, it is a mockery to the history of Israel and Judah. And was built as such.
lol. Who are you to say what right it has to be there? Just an ignorant religious Zionist by my math. And yes, you are a Jewish supremacist, your lack of self-awareness matches your lack of historical literacy.
> it's existance upon the site of the holy temple provokes the Jews every day
man you're fucking insane. Was obvious from the beginning but at least you've gone into detail. Well done ig.
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
Uh, have you heard about what China is doing with its "borders"??? Ever heard of Tibet?
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danman (Site Administrator)
Tibet's been part of China since before your country existed.
this is what US looked like when it was founded by the way:
here's what China looked like that same year, larger than it is now. Can you even locate Tibet?
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
If I had the same standards of judgment you seem to be demonstrating on my views, I would assume you hate Jews.
"lol. Who are you to say what right it has to be there?" What gave Muhamed the right to build his symbol upon the temple mount? He could have picked anywhere to build a house of worship but he put it RIGHT THERE. And if that wasn't bad enough, he proclaimed it one of the most holy sites in Islam just to stuff the issue full of explosive.
> it's existance upon the site of the holy temple provokes the Jews every day
man you're fucking insane. Was obvious from the beginning but at least you've gone into detail. Well done ig."
So you're saying there won't be a holy war if it is peacefully dismantled, or even more ammicable just moved off the temple mount?
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danman (Site Administrator)
> What gave Muhamed the right to build his symbol upon the temple mount?
The mosque was built in 7th Century by the 2nd Caliph of the Rashidun Caliphate.
The Jews hadn't been there in serious numbers for half over 500 years by that point & it was likely built on top something else unrelated to the Hebrews who were but a distant memory. There are layers of different things in the foundations but it's so controversial that not many people know what's there.
> And if that wasn't bad enough, he proclaimed it one of the most holy sites in Islam just to stuff the issue full of explosive.
I don't know wtf this is supposed to mean. Gunpowder didn't make its way out of China for another 500+ years.
> So you're saying there won't be a holy war if it is peacefully dismantled, or even more ammicable just moved off the temple mount?
No. Al Aqsa Mosque is a hard red line. It's not just Palestinians the Zionists have to worry about. Hassan Nasrallah has said it's a no-go. Shia Militiamen in Syria & Iraq would also jump in, possible Iran too.
Unfortunately for you the US is losing steam & at some point is probably gonna ditch that Jewish terrorist base like it does with all its proxies when their usefulness runs out.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
"The mosque was built in 7th Century by the 2nd Caliph of the Rashidun Caliphate." Right, so it had no greater claim. But a lesser claim.
"The Jews hadn't been there in serious numbers for half over 500 years by that point & it was likely built on top something else unrelated to the Hebrews who were but a distant memory. There are layers of different things in the foundations but it's so controversial that not many people know what's there."
That is because the Jews were largely thrown out and scattered, it took a very long time for them to unite and return home.
Why information is hazy on what is there is because for a very long time archaeologists were not permitted within this so called holy site, and with how sketchy sceintific authority has been upon many matters, it's hard to distinguish what is the truth.
"No. Al Aqsa Mosque is a hard red line. It's not just Palestinians the Zionists have to worry about. Hassan Nasrallah has said it's a no-go. Shia Militiamen in Syria & Iraq would also jump in, possible Iran too."
Exactly, the Caliphs knew this once Islam was sufficiently spread, hence why they proclaimed it a most holy site, to put a trap in place if the mosque is ever removed. It's like if me and a massive group of unified supporters walked into your home when you weren't around, and you came back to find us occupying with smiles. And then proclaiming your bedroom a holy site, and the surrounding armed and radicalized community agrees that it is most holy. You tell us to get out, we just smile and pretend not to listen. You call the police, and they say you weren't even home. You have to share. Now.
> And if that wasn't bad enough, he proclaimed it one of the most holy sites in Islam just to stuff the issue full of explosive.
I don't know wtf this is supposed to mean. Gunpowder didn't make its way out of China for another 500+ years."
Cute, Just because powder did not exist, the idea of chain reaction and massive reprucussions was still very much in human thought. But that was simply a glib remark on your behalf as you knew exactly what I meant.
"Unfortunately for you the US is losing steam & at some point is probably gonna ditch that Jewish terrorist base like it does with all its proxies when their usefulness runs out."
Soon Israel will not need the U.S. There will be a massive assembly against it of Iran, Egypt, Lybia, Syria, Possibly led by Turkey and Russia.
Spoiler Alert. God wins.
In that moment he will be magnified, and few will be able to deny his existance or power.
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danman (Site Administrator)
@bsm
> That is because the Jews were largely thrown out and scattered
yeah they were. They lost any claim to the land at that point. End of story.
It wasn't even theirs when they were kicked out, it belonged to the Roman Empire. The Romans controlled it and administered it. That's what ownership was in those days & still means a fair bit today although we now have int'l law & UN etc so it's more complicated. The Jews revolted to try & gain ownership & they lost, that's why they were kicked out. They gambled & lost. Religious texts are not a claim to a land. Your god isn't a real estate broker.
> simply a glib remark on your behalf as you knew exactly what I meant
I thought you literally meant explosive. I dunno what you're talking about there now. The reason holy sites are built in certain locations is often a flex, a symbol of domination & ownership, likely with some cultural significance to bring people into line.
> Spoiler Alert. God wins.
Alhamdulillah
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
Right. They conquered it again and took it back. If it's not theirs just remove them. It's simple. What they are doing is against the piece of paper, and against words.
The U.N. is a potatoe organization of thieves. Period.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> The U.N. is a potatoe organization of thieves. Period.
then why doesn't Israel leave the UN?
they signed the charter & conditions of entry but won't stick by what they signed. Unethical fucks.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
They are just using them the same way, U.N. is using the Israeli people. Like I said before, the Israeli government is largely illegitimate. Mostly a mafia. But, The Jewish PEOPLE still have a claim to their land. Hence I would not put it past the Israeli government to be in line with their agenda. It could be either of those cases, and which probably depends on what their parlaiment looked like through different periods since it's new founding.
"The reason holy sites are built in certain locations is often a flex, a symbol of domination & ownership, likely with some cultural significance to bring people into line." - Exactly my point. That's why it provokes the Jews. They had their temple there before commanded by God with exact specifications to be built in that exact spot.
When the Romans destroyed it, the site was desecrated as an insult after conquor. Which was unusual even for Rome, as they usually preserved religions where they went.
And that mosque being erected was a claim of new ownership.
Now Israel and Judah are back and they want their house back.
The bible has fortold that temple will return. Watch for it very likely in our generation.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> U.N. is using the Israeli people
that's bonkers
the UN is just a framework for countries to get together & try to maintain peace & stability
Israel is a fucking headache & corrupts the institution terribly
> the Israeli government is largely illegitimate. Mostly a mafia. But, The Jewish PEOPLE still have a claim to their land
well it's good you can see the zionist regime for what it is
this "claim to land" is not something that you can just take an opinion on & religion doesn't come into it.
the right of conquest was outlawed in early 20th Century & is one of the backbones of international law.
> That's why it provokes the Jews
who gives a fuck? Jews are a small group of people in a world of nearly 8 billion. They're no more important than the Palestinians who the Zionists are trying to genocide.
> They had their temple there before commanded by God
this is mythological voodoo
> When the Romans destroyed it, the site was desecrated as an insult after conquor
so what, they revolted against the Roman Empire & got rekt. Shit happens.
> Now Israel and Judah are back and they want their house back
it's not their house. They were kicked out of a house they were renting & they have zero legitemate claim, it's purely desire that they have, nothing more.
The only reason Israel exists is due to it being a tool of Western colonial powers. The very best you can hope for is they don't throw it under the bus before you die. It's gonna happen eventually though.
> The bible...
please.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
"the UN is just a framework for countries to get together & try to maintain peace & stability
Israel is a fucking headache & corrupts the institution terribly"
Yes the rockefellers care about peace and stability while they steal from you and say it your fault. Such a clean institution right from it's founding. Dumping a turd on a turd doesn't make it more dirty. It's all filth, and will be used as a cudgel against you when the time is right.
> That's why it provokes the Jews
who gives a fuck? Jews are a small group of people in a world of nearly 8 billion. They're no more important than the Palestinians who the Zionists are trying to genocide.
Not everything is about the collective. Individual rights exist and are strengthening for a reason. You want the genocide to stop, then start advocating pressure on the arab nations to let them come home.
> Now Israel and Judah are back and they want their house back
it's not their house. They were kicked out of a house they were renting & they have zero legitemate claim, it's purely desire that they have, nothing more.
The only reason Israel exists is due to it being a tool of Western colonial powers. The very best you can hope for is they don't throw it under the bus before you die. It's gonna happen eventually though..
They built the house, and never sold it. Thieving conquerors took it, they took it back. Everyone tried to take it back in the 6 day war and got annihilated.
Israel is there to stay.
the right of conquest was outlawed in early 20th Century & is one of the backbones of international law.
"That's illegal" ok Arrest them then.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> They built the house, and never sold it. Thieving conquerors took it
No, they migrated in there & then got kicked out 2000 years ago. It's not "their house" it's land on the planet Earth, something you should try to keep your feet on. The "Thieving conquerors" are the Western colonial powers & the Zionist apartheid regime in Palestine.
Also you should research the history of the UN - find out why it exists, what it does & for bonus points how it works. Rockafellar donating the building is neither here nor there really. It has a life of its own & is quite democratic, although doesn't always function so well. The US vetos every resolution that could pressure the Jews to halt their atrocities in Palestine. US domination within the UN is weakening now though so in typical US fashion I expect them to try to undermine it - either rendering it useless or just ignoring it when it suits.
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
It would be the same if the south succeeded in seceding from the Union then a hundred years later the Fed took it back.
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danman (Site Administrator)
What are you on about stokkebye - where is this random 100 years thing coming from?
Tibet first became part of China in 1265, then various levels of autonomy but re-conquered proper in 1720 & has been part of China in suzerainty setup since then. In early 20th C the Brits were trying to work it towards independence but it didn't take & no power recognized Tibet as an independent country since this nation-state concept began. It wasn't something the Chinese were willing to give up & only the Brits were cheeky enough to try & carve it off but didn't want to overtly sponsor independence there. The name 'Tibet' comes from the empire that existed before 1265, it's not been known as that since, other than a regoin in China afaik. It's been part of a khaganate under Mongol during that time tho. The mongols were the ones who put the Lamas in charge.
China did lose direct control in Tibet in early 20th C because it was going through a period of instability, then finally retook it after wwii & made it part of the newly formed nation state. During most of that period of turmoil in early 20th C the central authority of China maintained an office in Tibet although the Brits arguably had more influence there for a spell after they invaded & started working on the leadership. Nothing they did though made Tibet a de jure independent state. Was just informal shinenigans.
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
According to your definition regarding the Romans and the Jews, the Native Americans had no claim to North America either. Right?
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danman (Site Administrator)
no. They lived there for thousands of years & had control over the lands, giving them ownership.
It's your govt who doesn't really recognize their original sovereignty over the land prior to European colonial conquest in NA.
Before the Romans took the Levant, it belonged to the Greeks & before the Greeks it was part of the Assyrians' domain. This takes us back to around 750BC when history is murky & best & muddied by "biblical history" & modern politics. From what I've learned there was maybe around 150-250 years of Hebrew ownership but personally I don't believe the mythical "Kingdom of David/Solomon" was ever like what's described in the religious texts. The archeological evidence has basically debunked that by now.
If we go back another few centuries it was controlled by the rather obsure Sea People, the Canaanites, Pheonicians, Egyptions & before that the Hitites iirc. Of all the nations who've "owne" the Levant or the just the Palestine portion of it for the past 4,000 years, the "Jews" are barely more than a blip. There's nothing whatsoever that gives them a legit historical claim to the land, espeically since they left. It's a ridiculous idea that they have a claim beyond "I wants it".
Here's a fairly orthodox view of the timeline of the place, although I don't agree with it entirely it's probably pretty close tbf.
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
Ok, so, anyone who conquers the land gets to keep it and call it their own. Problem solved, Palestinians need to leave.
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danman (Site Administrator)
@stok - no that's not how sovereignty works these days. That was the right to conquest which was the old way & was banned early in 20th Century around the time the League of Nations was formed. It's hard banned for UN members, of which Israel is one.
These are fundamental things but I guess they're not obvious unless you actually look into it?
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
That makes sense. If you don't believe in the earlier records, and you trust 100% in establishment experts that may have agendas of their own. Such as being paid or blackmailed by powerful people that want to deligitimize Israel, Then of course nothing I say will make sense to you.
Just like if you believe government is just incompetent rather than malicious, there is nothing that can be said to convince you otherwise.
It's a tragedy really, because that mind set doesn't catch on to wickedness until things get really bad.
If you don't believe in the over 1000 year lineage from caanan to the babylonian displacement then you will always believe in and defend lies. Caananites were squatters too.
On the U.N.
"Rockafellar donating the building is neither here nor there really"
That's where you are very wrong. That is EVERYTHING. It is the next incarnation of their failed league of nations project.
It's meant to create a centralized system of false authority and to build a world wide army to crush dissident nations that don't obey when the time is right, after the other national powers are sufficiently weakened.
I'll repost a video that goes in depth into the backgrounds of the Secretary Generals of the U.N. You'll be horrified at some of the atrocities they have been implicated in.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> If you don't believe in the earlier records, and you trust 100% in establishment experts that may have agendas of their own. Such as being paid or blackmailed by powerful people that want to deligitimize Israel
I believe established experts, yes. They're professional academics such as historians, archeologists, linguists etc. Their information is there for all to see and they debate amongst themselves pushing further towards discovering the truth.
Zionist archeologists have been digging frantically since Zionists have taken control of Palestine & they're coming to the conclusion that the Kingdom of David was just a myth, or possibly something extremely small, compared to the legend as told in the religious texts. Their agenda was much closer to proving the legitemacy of Zionism & it's mostly being conducted under Israeli universities / government so you can't claim it's a conspiracy to undermine their cause.
....no archaeological evidence has been found that even remotely supports the grandeur described in the biblical accounts of David and Solomon, who ostensibly reigned between 1050 B.C.E. and 930 B.C.E. The only material sign of the kings' existence is controversial too: a stele found in northern Israel, from the mid-9th century B.C.E., inscribed with the words "House of David." But not everyone agrees that's what the stone even says."
All the stele says is that the Assyrians were there & smashed "David" <- the translation though is debated. That's the only archeological evidence when if it really did exist as described there should be shitloads!
I won't address your take on what I believe but it's obvious you haven't really looked into it & your views are extremely dogmatic & biased.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
Lol, Zionists are simply controlled opposition. They helped foement the second world war, they don't actually represent the jewish people.
The whole thing was a game to agitate the differences between the fascists and political zionists.
But keep trying to stick labels you are spoon fed onto the jars.
"Have fun supporting genocide, apartheid and EUROPEAN colonization of Palestine."
Right, everyone deserves a home but jews and white people, we are all well aware of the agenda you push.
You are ignoring the idea of peaceful exodus of the Syrian squatters. You are trying to sell a two card deck, when there is actually 52.
Unfortunately I can't locate the discussion on the U.N. It seems that panic has struck the establishment and they are desperately trying to erase records. A shame, it's really damning stuff that everyone deserves to see.
Not that it matters, I don't believe you would take an hour of your time to actually watch it anyway.
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danman (Site Administrator)
> "Have fun supporting genocide, apartheid and EUROPEAN colonization of Palestine."
I deleted that before you replied. I don't have any interest in continuing this convo. I'm declaring victory, you have nothing left. GG.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
Take your time, and rest up.
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stokkebye (sounds retarded)
Ahem. I am the only one here holding that title!
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
nope blackswordcunt is by quite a margin. This guy is so far beyond reason and rationale I hardly ever respond to him.
Comments
(sounds retarded)
US census does NOT recognize Arabs as a race. Whoopie would agree that this is not apartheid. I mean really, jews came out of the same region, right? Are they not the same "race"? Kinda blows up their own definition they gave.
(Site Administrator)
> jews came out of the same region, right?
no not really. The vast majority of jews in Palestine are descendents of those who migrated there post-wwi, they really ramped up the migration in the wake of wwii. In 1912 only around 5% of Palestine was Jewish & it'd been that way for centuries. Under Israeli law, Arabs are treated as a race/ethnic group & discriminated against in a way that deems the system they have as apartheid & in many ways more brutal than the apartheid system of South Africa.
Amnesty International is a British org & on the British census they list ethnic groups, one of which is Arab. I don't know what difference this makes though, it's kind of a silly talking point IMO. For all intents & purposes the situation in Palestine is one of racial colonization, genocide & apartheid aimed squarely at Arab Palestinians, with the agenda of driving them out of their homeland to make way for a "Jewish state". It's been found to be an apartheid state by reputable human rights orgs (with lawyers who specialize in theis stuff) with lengthy justifications & real evidence for why it meets this legal definition.
You can read a summary of why Israel is an apartheid state here
(sounds retarded)
Again, it gets to the definition of race. How specific? How narrow are you going to get with your definitions? Jews originated and came from the middle east, the same region that they now have their country there and for the same reason they chose that location. Its like saying the African Americans that founded Liberia are not really Africans because they came from America. But if you have a narrow definition of race then you can start to make the argument Jews are a separate race than Palestinians and committing apartheid, according to their definition.
If an Asian moves to Europe or Africa or Americas how long before they are no longer an Asian race? If Middle Eastern people are a race, separate from Caucasians, then Jews would remain Middle Eastern no matter how long they lived in northern Europe.
I feel like you are not following me here. I dont know how else to explain this so you understand.
If you have a broad view of race then there can only be 3, African, European, and Asian. All others are a mix and descendants of those 3.
I ran into a woman from the Saami people once and asked what she was all about. Told me they were the original people of the artic in Finland and Sweden. Looked pretty white to me. Couldnt really understand that one. I asked her so where did the Swedes and Fines come from after you settled there first? How long ago was that? Must have been thousands of years ago. Then she just ignored all that and started talking about how they didnt agree to form a government with Sweden and Finland and we left it at that.
People migrate, if you go back far enough we all are related.
(Site Administrator)
They do fit the common western description of race in several ways if you want to get into that...
In both the US & Israel being Jewish is hereditary - in Israeli law it requires your mother to be a Jewess & in American law it can be mother or father.
The name they gave their colonial enterprize - Israel - is the name given to Jacob in the Torah. This is one of their most important pattriarchs who they say they're descended from. So even in their religion they describe themselves as a race - they self-identify as one basically.
IMO a better term than 'race' would be 'ethnic group' or what I think fits best is 'tribe'. Another one you might use is 'nation'. In the practical sense, as I've said in the prev comment, within the context of Palestine, Jews very much are acting as a race of people. It's really quite similar to 'white' peope's colonization of North America. Whites are considered a race in the US & are made up of a range of Europeans & who were added along the way. Same kinda thing. Actually it's closer to South Africa's history than that of the US in terms of racial policies.
They don't absolutely fit into the American definition of race but 'race' isn't a technical term according to modern experts, which leaves the Rome Statute definition of apartheid needing a bit of an update. I understand that 'race' is a pretty fuzzy term & Jews don't fit squarely in the American definition of race but that doesn't mean Israel isn't practicing apartheid. Why would HRW release a 213-page report detailing Israel's crimes against humanity & define it as apartheid in no uncertain terms unless they were sure?
edit: kek
(Old Spike)
Not touching this with a 10 feet pole!
(Old Spike)
This is a yes and no issue that is very complicated.
1. Palestine is not a legitimate country.
They had no king before yassir Arafat.
They had no official currency.
They had no capital of their own when they settled it.
This problem is a U.N. construct . The other arab nations have an inside agreement to refuse refugees (Except Jordan) and to constantly smear Israel in every manner of problems. They need this problem to continue so that they can demonize Israel because Ancient reasons. Arafat refused every single deal ever offered, so that he could exacerbate this at the cost of Palestinian suffering. What a great king...
2. Where Israel is at fault. Their government has been subverted by Khazars. (Fake jews) They masquerade as Israeli leaders while in fact working as U.N. agents. They purposefully spread Palestinian hate, pass policies that impoverish and hurt Palestinians, and maniuplate the education system to raise new generations of Israelies to oppress Palestinians.
This is a problem that needs to be adressed in order to stop the suffering of both nations.
The other Arab nations must be pressured to allow the Palestinians to seek refuge. Land for peace did not work, Co existance does not work, citizenship will not work. Peaceful exodus is the only ammicable option.
(Site Administrator)
(Old Spike)
all complete horseshit. it was and is as much of a country as anywhere else. if you just didn't happen to write down france as being a country in the UN register of nations that wouldn't mean it's not a country. arguments that palestine is not a country are purely administrative and nothing more.
here's a palestinian coin, from when the british ruled the area. before that what you think they just never bought or sold anything?
(Old Spike)
That's a Palestinian POUND. Not an independant currency.
Anything written or proclaimed by the U.N. is not legitimate. They are a Rockefeller construct. Working for big bank and nothing else. All the National leaders that serve big bank continue to prop up it's claimed legitimacy, but it's "reverence" is completely undeserved.
(Old Spike)
This is not "complicated" at all!
The answer is yes, they run an apartheid state and not only supress one part of the population but also illegally occupy land that is not theirs.
End of story.
They only succeed because they have allies in the US and other western nations due to their sect having enormous financial influence over there.
Any and all criticism is silenced almost immediately as being "anti semitic".
(Old Spike)
exactly. they have clearly written laws that are different for jews and arabs, mostly involving land ownership, marriage, and welfare. how can anyone legitimately claim they have different laws for different races but are not apartheid? good point on "land that is not theirs" also. apologists like to say palestine isn't a state, but then ignore the fact that israel is a state with defined borders and the land they are taking is outside those borders.
(Old Spike)
Actually Israel has less land than their real borders. Abraham bought the land over 4000 years ago and built land claims that marked their territories.
What Israel repossessed breifly after the 6 day war was much closer to the original claim. The U.N. made them give most of it back.
Palestine was comprised mostly of Syrian squatters. Syria should take them back. That's their home. Nobody needs to be homeless, the other arab nations are keeping them in a tent city.
(Site Administrator)
I thought skeptoid was the most retarded user on here but clearly it's you.
(Old Spike)
Are you claiming Abraham never bought the land?
Are you claiming that Israel sold it to Palestine?
Are you claiming that squatting land makes it yours?
Are claiming that being conquored and forcefully displaced is a legitimate handing over of a nation? If so, then Israel taking back their rightfully purchased property is just as legitimate, and they at least had the reasonable nature to try and negotiate with them in the past. And it's Israel's fault they didn't accept a single offer?
Is it just that Israel is the only people on the planet that don't deserve a country of their own because ???
(Site Administrator)
> Are you claiming Abraham never bought the land?
yes
Not that it makes any difference whatsoever since the right to land by conquest was in play until last century & the Levant was taken by a bunch of empires in the region before, during & after Heebs migrated there & were finally kicked out. At the time they revolted & most were subsequently booted out the Roman Empire controlled & administered it. Later in history the Ottoman Empire had recognized soveriegnty over the land for centuries until WWI, during which the Brits captured it & went on to do what you might call "squatting" ... and in their usual way did backroom deals, allowing Jews to migrate in there, then they left in 1947 & the Jews began a campaign of genocide against the locals that persists to this day.
^ These are the historical facts. I dunno what you're talking about tbh, you're mixing mythology into your argument like some weirdo religious zealot with no grasp on land ownership norms or history.
> Are you claiming that squatting land makes it yours?
no
> Are claiming that being conquored and forcefully displaced is a legitimate handing over of a nation?
no. You are in your support of the zionist cause - it's a colonial project which you obviously endorse, using voodoo mumbo jumbo rationale & a lack of understanding/acknowledgement of history.
> Is it just that Israel is the only people on the planet that don't deserve a country of their own because ???
There are more than 13,000-24,000 peoples in the world and around 200 countries. Your question is retarded, even ignoring your use of the term "Israel" to describe those people... less than half of whom live inside Palestine in what most people refer to as "Israel".
(Old Spike)
"For the sake of argument, yes."
One of the most ancient texts we have The Torah, acknowledges the purchase.
Think that's national or religious bias? The Quaran also recognizes Abraham's legitimacy.
The right to conquest is still in play, always will be. time doesn't change that. It's the bottom line that is the final decider. If you can defend it's yours.
Babylon Took it from Israel. They took it back. Rome took it from Israel, England laid claim far after, handed it to squatters, then Israel united and took it back.
"You are in your support of the zionist cause" I don't believe in Jewish supremacy. I believe every legitimate nation has a right to a place to call their own.
"Later in history the Ottoman Empire had recognized soveriegnty over the land until WWII when the Brits were doing what you might call "squatting" and in their usual way did backroom deals & allowed Jews to migrate in there,"
The Ottoman empire was one of the most oppressive empires of all time. England too. At least some British leaders believed that Israel deserved a home. Whether or not this was part of the elites plan to foement the impending WWIII early by creating a political problem is anyones guess. But, the Jews are a legitimate race of people, and they deserve their nation.
"even ignoring your use of the term "Israel" to describe those people... less than half of whom live inside Palestine in what most people refer to as "Israel"."
That's still not their home. They also use conquest, by passive agressive occupation. Jews deals with violence in their alley ways every day by said occupiers.
Many of the people living there are orderly and able to coexist. Some are not.
(Site Administrator)
> One of the most ancient texts we have The Torah, acknowledges the purchase.
Dude we don't even know who wrote the Torah, Shirley you can't be serious.
I asked for original document - IE a verified deed to the land, not mythological propaganda.
> The right to conquest is still in play, always will be
Familiarize yourself with the Treaty of Westphalia & the UN Charter.
The Torah does not trump these documents. Far from it.
> Babylon Took it from Israel. They took it back.
No, according to your own legends it was Cyrus who defeated Babylon & settled Heebs in the Levant.
> I don't believe in Jewish supremacy.
clearly you do since you cite far-fetched Jewish scripture to claim ownership of land for Jews & dismiss the rights of the inhabitants who've lived there for centuries.
> The Ottoman empire was one of the most oppressive empires of all time
compared to the how the Jews behave in Palestine they were saints but why are you moralizing?
> Many of the people living their are orderly and able to coexist. Some are not.
clearly the Jews are not able to coexist but since you seem so extremely biased & wilfully ignorant of the history of the place let's not go litigate the atrocities & agenda of the Jews in Palestine since mid 20th Century.
(Old Spike)
"I asked for original document - IE a verified deed to the land, not mythological propaganda."
Before paper or even literacy was wide spread, you built land claims. Abraham built 4 altars that marked the territories.
"Familiarize yourself with the Treaty of Westphalia & the UN Charter.
The Torah does not trump these documents. Far from it."
The sword trumps every document.
Wave a document in the face of a man with a gun and see what has the final say.
"Babylon Took it from Israel. They took it back.
No, according to your own legends it was Cyrus who defeated Babylon & settled Heebs in the Levant."
I have to brush up on that part, perhaps Israel did not have a second ownership between babylon and Rome. Still doesn't change it was Israel's first. And is now.
"clearly you do since you cite far-fetched Jewish scripture to claim ownership of land for Jews & dismiss the rights of the inhabitants who've lived there for centuries."
Jews are no better than anyone else. Israel is their home, the Palestinians need to leave. The real tradgedy is that arab nations won't let the Palestinians leave, and a jewish mafia is running the Israeli government under U.N. direction to commit atrocities against a trapped people.
> The Ottoman empire was one of the most oppressive empires of all time
"compared to the how the Jews behave in Palestine they were saints but why are you moralizing?"
Infinitely more body bags and religious persecution as well as human rights abuses over centuries and centuries.
"clearly the Jews are not able to coexist"
If that were true as a whole they would have blown up the dome of the rock, rebuilt the original temple and removed all other faiths from their region.
(Site Administrator)
> The sword trumps every document.
must be nice being safe there in America, home of the most notorious war criminals since WWII.
wonder what you'd think if you spent an afternoon on the wrong end of "the sword".
> I have to brush up on that part...
that, and a million other things.
> If that were true as a whole they would have blown up the dome of the rock, rebuilt the original temple and removed all other faiths from their region.
what makes you think that's not part of their plan & are just waiting for the right moment?
srsly you have to be insane to argue that Zionist leaders in Palestine have peaceful coexistence on their agenda. You have access to the same information I do. Educate yourself sometime, jeez.
(Old Spike)
I'm in Canada dude. I'm on the wrong side of oppression daily. I never expected a truck protest to happen and rally the citizens. I expected to oppose this perverse system solitary, unarmed, and atomized.
Even with that against me, I will not give up my freedom. This movement was a bonus. And it's not the end, but only the beginning.
"that, and a million other things"
Don't we all. No one is an encyclopedia.
"what makes you think that's not part of their plan & are just waiting for the right moment?
srsly you have to be insane to argue that Zionist leaders in Palestine have peaceful coexistence on their agenda. You have access to the same information I do. Educate yourself sometime, jeez."
I don't doubt that. Every nation has a national faith. Christians don't do very well spreading their faith in Arab countries. Much worse happens to them than even the worst case scenario we have outlined.
I don't believe in bloodshed outside of self defense. With that said, that mosque has no right to be there, it is a mockery to the history of Israel and Judah. And was built as such.
A preplanned, passive aggressive excuse to cause a world wide holy war if it was removed. And it's existance upon the site of the holy temple provokes the Jews every day, with the looming threat of violence if that provocation dare be dismantled.
(Site Administrator)
> I don't believe in bloodshed outside of self defense
Zionist leaders do.
> With that said, that mosque has no right to be there, it is a mockery to the history of Israel and Judah. And was built as such.
lol. Who are you to say what right it has to be there? Just an ignorant religious Zionist by my math. And yes, you are a Jewish supremacist, your lack of self-awareness matches your lack of historical literacy.
> it's existance upon the site of the holy temple provokes the Jews every day
man you're fucking insane. Was obvious from the beginning but at least you've gone into detail. Well done ig.
(sounds retarded)
Uh, have you heard about what China is doing with its "borders"??? Ever heard of Tibet?
(Site Administrator)
Tibet's been part of China since before your country existed.
this is what US looked like when it was founded by the way:
here's what China looked like that same year, larger than it is now. Can you even locate Tibet?
(Old Spike)
If I had the same standards of judgment you seem to be demonstrating on my views, I would assume you hate Jews.
"lol. Who are you to say what right it has to be there?" What gave Muhamed the right to build his symbol upon the temple mount? He could have picked anywhere to build a house of worship but he put it RIGHT THERE. And if that wasn't bad enough, he proclaimed it one of the most holy sites in Islam just to stuff the issue full of explosive.
> it's existance upon the site of the holy temple provokes the Jews every day
man you're fucking insane. Was obvious from the beginning but at least you've gone into detail. Well done ig."
So you're saying there won't be a holy war if it is peacefully dismantled, or even more ammicable just moved off the temple mount?
(Site Administrator)
> What gave Muhamed the right to build his symbol upon the temple mount?
The mosque was built in 7th Century by the 2nd Caliph of the Rashidun Caliphate.
The Jews hadn't been there in serious numbers for half over 500 years by that point & it was likely built on top something else unrelated to the Hebrews who were but a distant memory. There are layers of different things in the foundations but it's so controversial that not many people know what's there.
> And if that wasn't bad enough, he proclaimed it one of the most holy sites in Islam just to stuff the issue full of explosive.
I don't know wtf this is supposed to mean. Gunpowder didn't make its way out of China for another 500+ years.
> So you're saying there won't be a holy war if it is peacefully dismantled, or even more ammicable just moved off the temple mount?
No. Al Aqsa Mosque is a hard red line. It's not just Palestinians the Zionists have to worry about. Hassan Nasrallah has said it's a no-go. Shia Militiamen in Syria & Iraq would also jump in, possible Iran too.
Unfortunately for you the US is losing steam & at some point is probably gonna ditch that Jewish terrorist base like it does with all its proxies when their usefulness runs out.
(Old Spike)
"The mosque was built in 7th Century by the 2nd Caliph of the Rashidun Caliphate." Right, so it had no greater claim. But a lesser claim.
"The Jews hadn't been there in serious numbers for half over 500 years by that point & it was likely built on top something else unrelated to the Hebrews who were but a distant memory. There are layers of different things in the foundations but it's so controversial that not many people know what's there."
That is because the Jews were largely thrown out and scattered, it took a very long time for them to unite and return home.
Why information is hazy on what is there is because for a very long time archaeologists were not permitted within this so called holy site, and with how sketchy sceintific authority has been upon many matters, it's hard to distinguish what is the truth.
"No. Al Aqsa Mosque is a hard red line. It's not just Palestinians the Zionists have to worry about. Hassan Nasrallah has said it's a no-go. Shia Militiamen in Syria & Iraq would also jump in, possible Iran too."
Exactly, the Caliphs knew this once Islam was sufficiently spread, hence why they proclaimed it a most holy site, to put a trap in place if the mosque is ever removed. It's like if me and a massive group of unified supporters walked into your home when you weren't around, and you came back to find us occupying with smiles. And then proclaiming your bedroom a holy site, and the surrounding armed and radicalized community agrees that it is most holy. You tell us to get out, we just smile and pretend not to listen. You call the police, and they say you weren't even home. You have to share. Now.
> And if that wasn't bad enough, he proclaimed it one of the most holy sites in Islam just to stuff the issue full of explosive.
I don't know wtf this is supposed to mean. Gunpowder didn't make its way out of China for another 500+ years."
Cute, Just because powder did not exist, the idea of chain reaction and massive reprucussions was still very much in human thought. But that was simply a glib remark on your behalf as you knew exactly what I meant.
"Unfortunately for you the US is losing steam & at some point is probably gonna ditch that Jewish terrorist base like it does with all its proxies when their usefulness runs out."
Soon Israel will not need the U.S. There will be a massive assembly against it of Iran, Egypt, Lybia, Syria, Possibly led by Turkey and Russia.
Spoiler Alert. God wins.
In that moment he will be magnified, and few will be able to deny his existance or power.
(Site Administrator)
@bsm
> That is because the Jews were largely thrown out and scattered
yeah they were. They lost any claim to the land at that point. End of story.
It wasn't even theirs when they were kicked out, it belonged to the Roman Empire. The Romans controlled it and administered it. That's what ownership was in those days & still means a fair bit today although we now have int'l law & UN etc so it's more complicated. The Jews revolted to try & gain ownership & they lost, that's why they were kicked out. They gambled & lost. Religious texts are not a claim to a land. Your god isn't a real estate broker.
> simply a glib remark on your behalf as you knew exactly what I meant
I thought you literally meant explosive. I dunno what you're talking about there now. The reason holy sites are built in certain locations is often a flex, a symbol of domination & ownership, likely with some cultural significance to bring people into line.
> Spoiler Alert. God wins.
Alhamdulillah
(Old Spike)
Right. They conquered it again and took it back. If it's not theirs just remove them. It's simple. What they are doing is against the piece of paper, and against words.
The U.N. is a potatoe organization of thieves. Period.
(Site Administrator)
> The U.N. is a potatoe organization of thieves. Period.
then why doesn't Israel leave the UN?
they signed the charter & conditions of entry but won't stick by what they signed. Unethical fucks.
(Old Spike)
They are just using them the same way, U.N. is using the Israeli people. Like I said before, the Israeli government is largely illegitimate. Mostly a mafia. But, The Jewish PEOPLE still have a claim to their land. Hence I would not put it past the Israeli government to be in line with their agenda. It could be either of those cases, and which probably depends on what their parlaiment looked like through different periods since it's new founding.
"The reason holy sites are built in certain locations is often a flex, a symbol of domination & ownership, likely with some cultural significance to bring people into line." - Exactly my point. That's why it provokes the Jews. They had their temple there before commanded by God with exact specifications to be built in that exact spot.
When the Romans destroyed it, the site was desecrated as an insult after conquor. Which was unusual even for Rome, as they usually preserved religions where they went.
And that mosque being erected was a claim of new ownership.
Now Israel and Judah are back and they want their house back.
The bible has fortold that temple will return. Watch for it very likely in our generation.
(Site Administrator)
> U.N. is using the Israeli people
that's bonkers
the UN is just a framework for countries to get together & try to maintain peace & stability
Israel is a fucking headache & corrupts the institution terribly
> the Israeli government is largely illegitimate. Mostly a mafia. But, The Jewish PEOPLE still have a claim to their land
well it's good you can see the zionist regime for what it is
this "claim to land" is not something that you can just take an opinion on & religion doesn't come into it.
the right of conquest was outlawed in early 20th Century & is one of the backbones of international law.
> That's why it provokes the Jews
who gives a fuck? Jews are a small group of people in a world of nearly 8 billion. They're no more important than the Palestinians who the Zionists are trying to genocide.
> They had their temple there before commanded by God
this is mythological voodoo
> When the Romans destroyed it, the site was desecrated as an insult after conquor
so what, they revolted against the Roman Empire & got rekt. Shit happens.
> Now Israel and Judah are back and they want their house back
it's not their house. They were kicked out of a house they were renting & they have zero legitemate claim, it's purely desire that they have, nothing more.
The only reason Israel exists is due to it being a tool of Western colonial powers. The very best you can hope for is they don't throw it under the bus before you die. It's gonna happen eventually though.
> The bible...
please.
(Old Spike)
"the UN is just a framework for countries to get together & try to maintain peace & stability
Israel is a fucking headache & corrupts the institution terribly"
Yes the rockefellers care about peace and stability while they steal from you and say it your fault. Such a clean institution right from it's founding. Dumping a turd on a turd doesn't make it more dirty. It's all filth, and will be used as a cudgel against you when the time is right.
> That's why it provokes the Jews
who gives a fuck? Jews are a small group of people in a world of nearly 8 billion. They're no more important than the Palestinians who the Zionists are trying to genocide.
Not everything is about the collective. Individual rights exist and are strengthening for a reason. You want the genocide to stop, then start advocating pressure on the arab nations to let them come home.
> Now Israel and Judah are back and they want their house back
it's not their house. They were kicked out of a house they were renting & they have zero legitemate claim, it's purely desire that they have, nothing more.
The only reason Israel exists is due to it being a tool of Western colonial powers. The very best you can hope for is they don't throw it under the bus before you die. It's gonna happen eventually though..
They built the house, and never sold it. Thieving conquerors took it, they took it back. Everyone tried to take it back in the 6 day war and got annihilated.
Israel is there to stay.
the right of conquest was outlawed in early 20th Century & is one of the backbones of international law.
"That's illegal" ok Arrest them then.
(Site Administrator)
> They built the house, and never sold it. Thieving conquerors took it
No, they migrated in there & then got kicked out 2000 years ago. It's not "their house" it's land on the planet Earth, something you should try to keep your feet on. The "Thieving conquerors" are the Western colonial powers & the Zionist apartheid regime in Palestine.
Also you should research the history of the UN - find out why it exists, what it does & for bonus points how it works. Rockafellar donating the building is neither here nor there really. It has a life of its own & is quite democratic, although doesn't always function so well. The US vetos every resolution that could pressure the Jews to halt their atrocities in Palestine. US domination within the UN is weakening now though so in typical US fashion I expect them to try to undermine it - either rendering it useless or just ignoring it when it suits.
(sounds retarded)
It would be the same if the south succeeded in seceding from the Union then a hundred years later the Fed took it back.
(Site Administrator)
What are you on about stokkebye - where is this random 100 years thing coming from?
Tibet first became part of China in 1265, then various levels of autonomy but re-conquered proper in 1720 & has been part of China in suzerainty setup since then. In early 20th C the Brits were trying to work it towards independence but it didn't take & no power recognized Tibet as an independent country since this nation-state concept began. It wasn't something the Chinese were willing to give up & only the Brits were cheeky enough to try & carve it off but didn't want to overtly sponsor independence there. The name 'Tibet' comes from the empire that existed before 1265, it's not been known as that since, other than a regoin in China afaik. It's been part of a khaganate under Mongol during that time tho. The mongols were the ones who put the Lamas in charge.
China did lose direct control in Tibet in early 20th C because it was going through a period of instability, then finally retook it after wwii & made it part of the newly formed nation state. During most of that period of turmoil in early 20th C the central authority of China maintained an office in Tibet although the Brits arguably had more influence there for a spell after they invaded & started working on the leadership. Nothing they did though made Tibet a de jure independent state. Was just informal shinenigans.
(sounds retarded)
According to your definition regarding the Romans and the Jews, the Native Americans had no claim to North America either. Right?
(Site Administrator)
no. They lived there for thousands of years & had control over the lands, giving them ownership.
It's your govt who doesn't really recognize their original sovereignty over the land prior to European colonial conquest in NA.
Before the Romans took the Levant, it belonged to the Greeks & before the Greeks it was part of the Assyrians' domain. This takes us back to around 750BC when history is murky & best & muddied by "biblical history" & modern politics. From what I've learned there was maybe around 150-250 years of Hebrew ownership but personally I don't believe the mythical "Kingdom of David/Solomon" was ever like what's described in the religious texts. The archeological evidence has basically debunked that by now.
If we go back another few centuries it was controlled by the rather obsure Sea People, the Canaanites, Pheonicians, Egyptions & before that the Hitites iirc. Of all the nations who've "owne" the Levant or the just the Palestine portion of it for the past 4,000 years, the "Jews" are barely more than a blip. There's nothing whatsoever that gives them a legit historical claim to the land, espeically since they left. It's a ridiculous idea that they have a claim beyond "I wants it".
Here's a fairly orthodox view of the timeline of the place, although I don't agree with it entirely it's probably pretty close tbf.
(sounds retarded)
Ok, so, anyone who conquers the land gets to keep it and call it their own. Problem solved, Palestinians need to leave.
(Site Administrator)
@stok - no that's not how sovereignty works these days. That was the right to conquest which was the old way & was banned early in 20th Century around the time the League of Nations was formed. It's hard banned for UN members, of which Israel is one.
These are fundamental things but I guess they're not obvious unless you actually look into it?
(Old Spike)
That makes sense. If you don't believe in the earlier records, and you trust 100% in establishment experts that may have agendas of their own. Such as being paid or blackmailed by powerful people that want to deligitimize Israel, Then of course nothing I say will make sense to you.
Just like if you believe government is just incompetent rather than malicious, there is nothing that can be said to convince you otherwise.
It's a tragedy really, because that mind set doesn't catch on to wickedness until things get really bad.
If you don't believe in the over 1000 year lineage from caanan to the babylonian displacement then you will always believe in and defend lies. Caananites were squatters too.
On the U.N.
"Rockafellar donating the building is neither here nor there really"
That's where you are very wrong. That is EVERYTHING. It is the next incarnation of their failed league of nations project.
It's meant to create a centralized system of false authority and to build a world wide army to crush dissident nations that don't obey when the time is right, after the other national powers are sufficiently weakened.
I'll repost a video that goes in depth into the backgrounds of the Secretary Generals of the U.N. You'll be horrified at some of the atrocities they have been implicated in.
(Site Administrator)
> If you don't believe in the earlier records, and you trust 100% in establishment experts that may have agendas of their own. Such as being paid or blackmailed by powerful people that want to deligitimize Israel
I believe established experts, yes. They're professional academics such as historians, archeologists, linguists etc. Their information is there for all to see and they debate amongst themselves pushing further towards discovering the truth.
Zionist archeologists have been digging frantically since Zionists have taken control of Palestine & they're coming to the conclusion that the Kingdom of David was just a myth, or possibly something extremely small, compared to the legend as told in the religious texts. Their agenda was much closer to proving the legitemacy of Zionism & it's mostly being conducted under Israeli universities / government so you can't claim it's a conspiracy to undermine their cause.
All the stele says is that the Assyrians were there & smashed "David" <- the translation though is debated. That's the only archeological evidence when if it really did exist as described there should be shitloads!
I won't address your take on what I believe but it's obvious you haven't really looked into it & your views are extremely dogmatic & biased.
(Old Spike)
Lol, Zionists are simply controlled opposition. They helped foement the second world war, they don't actually represent the jewish people.
The whole thing was a game to agitate the differences between the fascists and political zionists.
But keep trying to stick labels you are spoon fed onto the jars.
"Have fun supporting genocide, apartheid and EUROPEAN colonization of Palestine."
Right, everyone deserves a home but jews and white people, we are all well aware of the agenda you push.
You are ignoring the idea of peaceful exodus of the Syrian squatters. You are trying to sell a two card deck, when there is actually 52.
Unfortunately I can't locate the discussion on the U.N. It seems that panic has struck the establishment and they are desperately trying to erase records. A shame, it's really damning stuff that everyone deserves to see.
Not that it matters, I don't believe you would take an hour of your time to actually watch it anyway.
(Site Administrator)
> "Have fun supporting genocide, apartheid and EUROPEAN colonization of Palestine."
I deleted that before you replied. I don't have any interest in continuing this convo. I'm declaring victory, you have nothing left. GG.
(Old Spike)
Take your time, and rest up.
(sounds retarded)
Ahem. I am the only one here holding that title!
(Old Spike)
nope blackswordcunt is by quite a margin. This guy is so far beyond reason and rationale I hardly ever respond to him.