HILLARIOUS! If even the fox news host openly disagrees with someone one "their" political side it is time to consider seeking treatment.
Trump wanted this nutter as the German ambassador, btw.
Can someone explain what this "neutral Ukraine" babble means?
(2 votes)
Comments
(Site Administrator)
neutral means not part of NATO, obviously, & MacGregor's not wrong.
calling him a nutter & not even knowing what neutral means is embarrassing for you.
(Old Spike)
How on earth can you say "neutral is not wrong" when a sovreign Nation is FORCED to be neutral?
(Site Administrator)
"what they wanted was a neutral Ukraine"
this is not wrong. It's what MacGregor said & he's right. Russia made no secret of this & has tried for many years to make it happen via diplomacy. US overthrew the govt of Ukraine in 2014 & fucked everything up, using their political clout to legitemize a coup regime so they could use it to antagonize Russia, even arming neo-Nazis who grew in power such that they now practically run the National Guard & are embedded throughout the military & political establishment.
Russia's chief concern is the NATO infrastructure creeping up to their border as it already is too close in Romania & Poland & if you think the US would have been as patient as Russia has been while eg. China was installing miltiary infrastructure & building security alliances in Canada you're even dumber than you seem. You seem to have no understanding of the situation in Ukraine or great power politics & it's too much to explain. I'll just keep tweaking your nips with the FACT that NATO's been arming & training nazis in Ukraine, because they have & it's something you can get your head around.
(Old Spike)
Does anybody actually pay you to spout this kind of nonsense. What they want is what they want, who cares?
(Old Spike)
Ummm yeah.. kinda why no one replies to his bulllshit! He's just another slav with an inferiority complex. Talk to a wall if yo like! CCCP or USSR is gone...... the world thew a f.. party. This guy thoug, wasnt even born when the wall fell. Like millions of other slav......clings on the old Soviet or the old alliance if you will.
Idiot might not have noticed .... i don't engage true belives or the mentally ill....cause why?
(Site Administrator)
you have no clue about this stuff so you resort to ad hom
how embarrassing for you
(Site Administrator)
Getting back to DC's point. Why do you think it's fair or right for one nation to dictate another nation's foreign policy. NATO's role in particular is purely defensive. So if Putin stays nice why care if Ukraine joins?..unless.. he has plans (mwa ha ha).
(Site Administrator)
his point has nothing to do with what MacGregor said.
It's something entirely different which would require knowledge of the history of the conflict to unpack. I'm not gonna get into that here.
MacGregor said "what they wanted was a neutral Ukraine"
This is correct. DB misinterpreted my comment & he doesn't know shit about the history of the place. Judging by your comment you don't seem to either.
I don't necessarily endorse Russia's decision to send in forces but it's definitely not unprovoked. 14k people have died in a conflict that started there in 2014, beginning with the overthrow of the Ukrainian govt, which US orchestrated. NATO is an anti-Russian military bloc that's been setting up bases right next to Russia's border. This isn't tiddly winks.
In 1917 Germany sent a telegram to Mexico offering an alliance & that was enough for US to declare war on Germany. Ukraine signed up to join NATO in 2008 & Russia's been complaining ever since. US konws this was a bridge too far but has been pushing it regardless, disregarding Russia's concerns completely. It's not just "Russia doesn't want it" it's a matter of stability - NATO missiles in Poland & Romania can reach Moscow in minutes. Russia has the world's largest nuclear arsenal & this shit is too destabilizing. They've been ignored at every turn in their attempts to resolve these security issues diplomatically & are now looking at NATO bases in Ukraine, under a pretext of "training" - Ukraine has become a de facto part of NATO through the back door with a whole bunch of underhanded tactics like the coup in 2014.
Let me ask you a question: do NATO bases on Russia's borders pose an existential threat to Russia?
(Site Administrator)
I know more about Ukraine's history than most and the reason I asked the question above has to do with the parallels I see between them and Greece, which also has a wolf at its door, in that case saying it would like to turn Greek islands into a neutral zone. Big ones, like Rhodes, Samos etc. I see echoes of a likely future, where Greece stands alone under the threat of revived Ottoman expansionist ideals (already here, actually). In that eventuality, both nations are members of NATO. So it would be.. even messier.
I'll answer your question by giving the same response Greece gives to Turkey when they complain about there being a military presence on Greek islands. 'You know that they are there in a purely defensive capacity. You get to sleep well at night not concerned in the slightest about being invaded. So..why does it bother you?'
(Site Administrator)
bobbob - you haven't addressed the question imo.. I'll ask again
do NATO bases on Russia's borders pose an existential threat to Russia?
(Old Spike)
"do NATO bases on Russia's borders pose an existential threat to Russia?"
Ill answer this for you:
no.
(Site Administrator)
Dan. Asked and answered with concrete example provided. One cannot play agressor and victim at the same time. If you still don't like it, see the guy above for a more succinct answer.
(Long Spike)
dan. germany stopped doing unrestricted submarine warfare in the north atlantic ocean and the mediterranean sea. in feb 1st 1917 they decided they were going to go back to doing it. from feb 1st to the day america declared was 2 months later. germany had sunk 10 american merchant ships. so, do you think the letter was enough for the US to declare war on germany or maybe the letter was a side note to the lose of american merchants?
(Site Administrator)
Sure the unrestricted sub warfare was an issue, as is NATO arming Nazis in Ukraine to kill Russian Ukrainians, but it's more complicated than simply blaming Germany (US was helping their enemies & disregarding their embargo while abiding by UK's embargo on the Crauts) but we don't need to get into it because the US cited the Zimmerman telegram as a reason for declaring war on Germany, as Russia is citing Ukraine trying to join NATO as one of their main beefs that's led to this conflict.
NATO invited Ukraine to join in 2008. 15 years ago. US knew since the 1990s that this was a red line with Russia & has pushed the whole time regardless, refusing to even talk to Russia about it.
You don't have to take my word, or that of the countless experts & US & Russian govt officials who've said this over the years, you can just listen to the current US president, he knew in 1997 what NATO expanding East would destabilize the region:
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1500782300014993418/pu/vid/640x480/nUTaG0DKxT60aoHZ.mp4
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1500784463608963075/pu/vid/640x480/8uv8hMnHRYoEJKJO.mp4
(Long Spike)
i don't take you're word on it because your word yesterday was "In 1917 Germany sent a telegram to Mexico offering an alliance & that was enough for US to declare war on Germany."
(Site Administrator)
you've just ignored that I acknowledged the rest of the situation in 1917 but the Zimmerman Telegram is widely acknowledged as the final trigger
just as Ukraine being invited into Ukraine in 2008 is not a stand alone event that cause the conflict today, but it is a crucial one
another example of western double standards around insisting Ukraine should have the option of joining NATO is the Cuban Missile Crisis, yet another is the Monroe Doctrine, which still stands today
just to highlight how unwilling you are to engage in good faith, I'll ask again:
do NATO bases on Russia's borders pose an existential threat to Russia?
(Old Spike)
"do NATO bases on Russia's borders pose an existential threat to Russia?"
lol. asked and answered: no.
(Site Administrator)
the question wasn't for you
(Old Spike)
ooooooooh don't get your panties in a bunch snowflake!
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
You could similarly ask does a police officer with a weapon in his holster cause an existential threat to people?
(Long Spike)
so you want me to acknowlege something you mentioned only because i brought up the fact that you left out everything else that led up to america declaring war. you went from saying it was reason enough to it being the final trigger and you want acknowledgment? how about this. i acknowledge that you're dumb as shit, you don't know how to argue and you're in to much a hurry to throw your hat in without knowing what your talking about
nato bases only pose an existential threat to russia if russia existence is based on military conquest. don't want nato on your border, don't invade the country on nato's border
(Site Administrator)
NATO's been involved in 4 wars of aggression in the past 25 years & there's nothing they've done to show they're not a threat to Russia. They refuse to even discuss security cooperation & the US openly calls Russia their rival/threat/enemy etc. US being the actual decision maker in NATOstan.
They've placed missile systems in Romania & Poland under the laughable pretense of stopping Iranian ICBMs (that the Iranians don't even have). These missile systems are dual-purpose (defense & offense) and can be loaded with nuclear-tipped missiles without Russia even knowing. Their flight times are a little over 10 minutes & likely to come down. If they were in Ukraine the flight time is reduced to a few minutes - not even enough time for Russia to detect them before they hit their most important cities. This is before even getting into how NATO is used by the US to politically control the countries within it.
Objectively speaking NATO in its current form is a threat to Russia as many top experts attest to & if you think the US would allow Chinese or Russian military alliance & infrastructure so close to their borders you're mad. They've decided Russia & China are a threat to them without these countries even fucking doing anything to warrant it. Your country takes this stance also, because it's a cuck country that has its foreign policy dictated to by the yanks.
Ukraine is a fucking crazy country with unstable leadership that if given NATO protection would pose an extreme danger to Russia, even without the US doing anything but the US would be pulling anti-Russia shit since it's their stated doctrine to crush any near peer rivals & which they consider Russia one of these.
Your logic is along the lines of "if you've got nothing to hide then why don't you just let thet cops perform anal cavity search you every time they leave the house" combined with "pay no attention to the cops who've raped a bunch of people before with zero repercussions & who are racist against your kind, you're just being paranoid if you think anything's gonna happen to you"
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"here's nothing they've done to show they're not a threat to Russia."
Thats actually the purpose of NATO. To be a threat to Russia, thats it's main function. NATO attacking would serve no purpose other than starting WW3 and wiping out most of the world.
You think hte US calls all the shots when it comes to NATO. Nations can decide if they want to join NATO or not, they also have a lot of say in what they participate in. The reasons for joining NATO are obvious, and Russia is currently proving their point. Suddenly people here in Finland and Sweden are way more open to joining NATO.
(Old Spike)
Someone farted and asked why it's fair or right for one nation to dictate another nation's foreign policy. That question has been asked of the United States for 20 years and the answer has always been "Because we can kill you."
Ah, it smells better in here now.