Skip to 2:05 if you actually are aware of what "theory" stands for from a scientific point of view (@skeptoid don't skip to 2:05).
Some thoughts on aversive dog training by the same guy. Why does embedding not work as before?
I would be happy to continue my discussion wth @skeptoid from here of from a re-submission on his dogwalk video....
(6 votes)
Comments
(Old Spike)
(Old Spike)
I haven't figured out yet how to edit a comment - plastic IQ decreases as one gets older, LOL.
So while I was walking Ziggy a moment ago I thought of a different angle in my attempt to demonstrate to you that I'm arguing about apples and you are arguing about oranges. I'm actually watching over the dogs at the ranch for two days starting Wednesday because my sis and her hubby have to leave town with the kids. I'm going to be going over there tonight for some additional guidance from my sister. I will type out a new reply where I try to show you that there really isn't a disagreement here over anything relevant in terms of dog rehabilitation, and how the adversarial approach towards Cesar and other "idiot savants" by more "educated" science-minded types is helping neither dogs nor a scientific understanding of what's going on with them. So that will be tonight, and should be up by the time you log on again.
(Old Spike)
Good, you can comment.
Nobody asked you or anybody to produce a peer reviewed paper, UNLESS your hypothesis CONTRADICTS curren scientific research. DOES IT?
I put this up to pick up where we left it, i.e. where I defined your "coto" for you and you still did not agree or disagree on reward, punishment, positive and negative. Why are you avoiding this?
Take your biased hat off when you watch these things, no one is attacking you or your sister. The guy is simply explaining things in laymens terms. If you disagree with something just tell us.
So you agree that the dominance theory is not valid?
And you agree that dogs are NOT pack animals, despite CM claiming they are?
I have little tim as I am refurbishng the house we bought, so be a little paient please.
(Old Spike)
I will respond tonight when I have a lot of time, because it's a big response. I thought it out in muh brain while I was walking Ziggy for an hour, trying to figure out how to contextualize my issues and your issues in a way that fosters the common ground you acknowledge is important to communicate effectively on this.
(Old Spike)
Son't bother with a wall of words if you can't even egree on the simplest definitions. It is just definitions, NOT condemning anything or anyone or applied methods.
I think you are pretty insecure about the topic, hence the avoidence and diversions and of course the rather foolish condemning of the guy in the video. It is of no importance what your sister trusts you to do or how many dogs she helped or even "saved". We are talking basics, establishing a common language, nothing more or less.
(Old Spike)
Here's your wall of text. I'm not insecure about he subject at all - just sad that your focus seems to be in a place that's largely, although not entirely, irrelevant to what really matters here. And, here we go:
(Old Spike)
Sorry I just noticed the paragraph breaks were not retained from Wordpad when I pasted this into the comment thread. I wish I could figure out how to edit comments. It was not intended to be an actual WALL of text.
(Old Spike)
For the life of me I do not understand why they would block people from editing comments like they did on the old site. What is wrong with being able to make edits up until someone responds? I mean, really, what the fuck is wrong with do it that way? Why force everyone to grind out a ridiculous amount of points for the privileged of fixing their fuck ups.
(Old Spike)
If you expect people to read this dulling babble of self praise, you are mistaken. Come back when you have a real ON THE POINT contribution or at least learn to put paragraphs in a piece of text.
(Old Spike)
Sorry dude - I accept your retreat. I put genuine effort into that - had I been able to re-insert the paragraph breaks after hitting the save button I would have. For the record there is no self-praise in the post, but you wouldn't know that because you didn't read it right? You are the one who insisted on pushing the conversation. I'm quite happy to end it here if you lack the strength and integrity to see it through. Cheers!
(Old Spike)
OK, I guess what you wrote is a summary and / or combination of your sisters pamphlets and experiences, a mere diversion and distraction from the issues I asked you to address, agree or disagree on, HOWEVER, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to read your reply IF it addressed the following:
There is no conversation to be had if we don't use the same terms.
So let me know if any (and if yes, which) of the 3 points above actually have been addressed in your "thesis" and I'll read it.
(Old Spike)
You are one piece of work andmust be the biggest coward I have seen on an anonymous forum. You, boy, are worse than thewiz, babydick, kdogg and the others. Too fucking scared to even agree to use a common language so that you can keep on weaseling your words around the bullshit that is distributed by those eternally living in the past.
Up to your last message I tried to at least address the relevant parts of the pompous bullshit you wrote, whilst you kept on diverting and avoiding.
You, sir, are an illiterate coward.
Please let me quote Alvin Toffler, who perfectly described the likes of you:
“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. ”
―
(Long Spike)
"Both my sister and I are not interested in submitting scientific papers for peer-review you arrogant jewel of a man"
Dude WTF!
can i come home everyday and kick the shit out of my dog? i'm not interested in submitting scientific papers so it shouldnt matter right? as long as the dog doesnt bite anyone, knobody can tell me i'm wrong since there is no real comparison....
i wouldn't have compared you to flat earth believers but i would have said it was the same as believing in religion. you really have no reason for it, you could say it works
saved your comment that i didnt reply to from last week
"Well, your first paragraph is just an angry accusation without proof based on emotions only you understand, so I won't respond to it until the end. Your following two paragraphs simply reveal your complete lack of understanding of the dynamics at play. Dogs are not wolves because we made them dogs - we converted them into canines that transplant the "pack leader" expectation to the human. It is a fusion of wolve behavioral dynamics with human needs and communication. Dogs don't look to other dogs to be the pack leader, except in the most loose sense (that pack of dogs that mauled and killed an old couple were said to have been "egged on" by their nominal gang leader, a tiny aggressive). So it's not about reducing yourself to a dog's level, and it's not about raising a dog to a human level.
The umwelt with dogs represents the refinement of instinctual canine psychology to a point where they became useful to us when we communicate with them. This transformation occured in a FLASH in historic terms. The touch does nothing more than signal the dog to stop and pay attention - that's it. People completely misunderstand the "simulate bite" thing. Wolves pin and make tooth contact with the throat to communicate the need to obey and submit. A communication "bite" is completely different from an actual bite. Cesar is not an academic - when he says it simulates a bite what he means is it is the human refinement of that ancient wolve practice of communication. When wolves actually bite each other - as in puncturing flesh and drawing significant amount of blood - it is not communication so much as an escalation into violent contest, the desire to hurt, kill, etc. Even a wolve pack leader that touches a subordinate is not trying to injure that subordinate - it is communicating.
Canines don't have hands and fingers, eh? Their teeth are their fingers - they have no other means than that with which to communicate critical social communication - the stuff that really matters if everyone in the pack is going to function as a unit. It is the very fact that wolf "communicative touch" does not have in any way the same results as a bite that makes it a communication rather than an escalation to violent contest. We have hands, and we are much more intelligent, and when we turned wolves into dogs we took that baseline social communicative structure and refined it so that the focus is on the human, but that communication is still necessary. To simulate a bite take a metal clamp with four sharp "incisors" and rend a dog's flesh with it - there's your BITE. When you touch a dog - anti-CM folks love to mislead by using misleading terms like "kick" and "strike" - it simply tells the dog to stifle that undesirable impulse and look to you for guidance. Over time the goal is to increase the robustness of the dog's impulse control. This works especially well with aggressive and fearful dogs who start out with limited impulse control for whatever reason. They are on the path to oblivion - my sister seeks to rescue them.
I'm sorry your mom was mean to your dogs. When you touch a dog to command attention the dog does not think "Ow, man you bit me - geeze". No. The dog thinks "Stop, look to master - he or she will deal with this crisis. I'm going to be okay." They do not think "Well, that was once again undesirable - I don't want that to happen again so I better calm down." NO. Do you understand the difference here?
Did you know that Daftcunt's method was derived from work with dolphins? It works well with dolphins. Have you ever walked a dolphin down mainstreet? Have you ever left a dolphin at home while you went out to get groceries? Have you ever had your dolphin rush to the door to aggressively confront a stranger? LOL
When my sister worked for a few years at the vet as a teenager, she was horrified to discover that people can just bring their dog into the vet, tell the vet they "don't want it anymore - it bit me yesterday" and pay the vet, and the vet will kill the dog. Did you know that? They tried to socialize my sister to this - tried to convince her that killing these perfectly healthy dogs with stupid owners was part of the business. She said NO, and it is from that point where she launched into her entire life of striving to stop the killing of good dogs with stupid owners. She has as much certification as a person can have to do the job she does. Preventing the unneccessary killing of perfectly sane and healthy dogs underlies her entire life - HER ENTIRE LIFE. You act like you care so much about the poor dogs getting touched on the neck, and you imply that my sister is some cynical opportunist trying to make a buck as some kind of uneducated conperson. You are anthropormorphizing the dog, and she is understanding, saving, and protecting them. You are all talk, and an ignorant, emotional, armchair critic of something you DO NOT understand.
Cesar once did a two part episode where he brought an actual University-educated wolve specialist in to help him explain to people the profound differences between dogs and wolves in their orientation towards people to discourage folks from taking wolves or even wolve hybrids as pets. The wolf specialist said Cesar is "the expert" on dog behavior, despite his complete lack of formal training of any kind. Cesar acknowledged that wolves are a completely different thing, and somewhat baffling to him. He does not understand them, and cannot communicate with them. They won't take a leesh, usually, and even if you do manage to get them to see you as the pack leader, as some have, that's only going to happen if you dive into their world and not vice versa.
Trivia question: Why do dogs have round heads while wolves have squared-off heads? For the rest see my response to Daftcunt later today."
i didnt need time. just didnt feel like reading the comments. i still didnt. i dont know what daftcunt said. didnt read it. not interested in your personal stories or personal beliefs. if its not scientific its bullshit pseudoscience.
still stand by my comment about your sister. it wasn't mean spirited, it was honest. maybe a bit too honest. a dog can be a weapon if its not properly trained. your sister doesn't have the credentials. you wouldn't send a problematic kid to a child psychologist that doesnt have the education. if one of those dogs she looks after happens to grievously wound someone. all she can offer up is an apology. all she's covered for, is if the dog gets hurt/dies/stolen on the property. she can close up shop, and start new in a different city.
you can't simulating bitting with your fingers. shit you can't even really simulate bitting like a dog with your teeth, they aren't even sharp enough to get thru dogs hide. i'll tell you a story. i've bit a dog. stuck my hand inside its mouth to try and pry it open to get my dog out. it chewed on my fingers for 20 seconds. they looked like hotdogs when they split. in the blinding pain, i bit that dog on the back of its neck for 3 or 4 seconds out of desperation. the dog didnt even flintch and i bit hard,
it jacked up two of us and i didnt do any damage using my incisors.
(Old Spike)
Only two things to say to you: My sister does have the credentials otherwise she wouldn't be able to do this - she has all of the official schooling required for certification. You are ignorant - you don't understand. Second, you saying "come home every day and kick the shit out of my dog" ends this conversation. I don't know anyone who does that - your mommy did it and it scarred you. Not my issue - your issue. I've having a conversation with Daftcunt about this, not you. You are too ignorant and traumatized by far to have a useful discussion about this. I frequently detect in your emotional outburts the need for some kind of catharsis related to past trauma - I have my own issues like that. But it's not very healthy fuel for a conversation.
(Old Spike)
As far as I know there are no legal requirements or minimum education for a person to become a dog trainer in the US or Canada. Can you shed a light on what they are (not the ones that are required to run the business like permits facility requirements etc.)?
(Long Spike)
when i asked you if she had any credentials you gave a story about her working at a vet as a teen instead of a resounding yes when i looked it up, the only requirements was a building large enough to store the amount of dogs, liability insurance and proper labelling procedures. according to the animal humane society's website, 0 requirements to train dogs. to be a pet psychologist, she would have spent 3-8 years in school. you would have known that.
you think i would kick my own dog? i told you i stuck my hand in a dogs mouth to help mine. i've also gone thu ice twice to help dogs. i'm arguing with you over how you and your sis' treat them and you think i would put the boot to mine?
my mom never went to town on a dog. she gets them at 6months to a year. she never put them in a cage or crate while shes away, dog destroys a coffee table. it got a wack on the bum with a rolled up newspaper. maybe happened 3 times its entire life. dogs were angels. never had to be tied up outside. you could just leave the door open and they would come back in when they were done. why i brought it up was that my moms method has as much science behind it as does cm technique. and if the results are all that matter, were in a wold of fucked.
seriously, what kind of person do you think i am? like brutally honest
(Old Spike)
My sister would have to answer that when she gets back. I know there are some facility requirements and the need to comply with bylaws at the municipal level, which varies depending on the county or city. In terms of the educational requirements I have heard my sister complain strongly about them not being robust enough. She can answer in more detail when she gets back - perhaps you and her could create the first extensive guidelines to lobby the government for something more established and useful.
(Old Spike)
"I know there are some facility requirements and the need to comply with bylaws at the municipal level, which varies depending on the county or city."
not relevant.
People creating rules and guidelines on this would need quite some scientific backgroud and training. This may be a stumbling block for one party....
(Old Spike)
I'm sure input from your side of the perception would be beneficial, but not necessary. Question: How many dogs on average do you train and/or board per month? What is your daily average?
(Old Spike)
AGAIN you are avoiding the answer to the question:
Which formal qualification is required in Canada to become a dog trainer?
As far as I know the answer is (the same as in Spain, btw): NONE!
Please come back with "your" answer before again creating distractions and divesions.