"Science is but an organized system of ignorance".
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Exactly right backdraft. 'Nothing is inexplicable. It's only unexplained.' The Doctor (Tom Baker, Doctor Who. ;-)
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
So they did they have the answer? Why haven't we read about this anywhere then and need to listen to some guy's blog (which probably doesn't have a general scientific theme)?
I do admit I should have put "at this point in time" or "at the current standings of research", my bad.
Oh, and if you insist on an answer, here it is "we don't know"!
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
From antitheist straight past atheist to agnostic with a single declaration. Careful you don't give yourself a nosebleed moving so fast.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
lol, whenever belief comes into play you get oh so excited, don't ya.
People have been thinking about this for ages, there was an interesting discussion forum (posted on the old spiked a few years back I think) hosted by NDGT on the topic. All of the participants had a scientific background, I think, none of them (even those that strongly supported the idea) came even close to an answer.
So to dumb it down for the theist: At the moment the answer to the question "Are we living in a simulation?" (Same as to "is there a god") is "we don't know". Some feel they have a reason to believe this is the case, however there is (currently) no proof for it whatsoever.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Agree with most everything you said except the bit where the atheist (another faith, basically) thinks he's dumbing things down for anyone.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Well, if people still think that atheism is a "faith" I actually and quite obviously have not succeeded dumbing things down enough for them!
So here goes once again:
One cannot "believe in a negative" (similar to one cannot prove a negative). The absence of a belief is not "a belief".
It would be like saying a "non smoker" is actually "a smoker" just because there the word "smoker" appears in the term.
What I really don't get is why some believers are so extremely desperate to make atheism "a faith", I have my suspicions, but maybe, as you clearly are one of them, you can shed a light on that?
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
This might come down to people miss labeling themselves (atheist vs antitheist), but if you take your typical "hard core" atheist, they usually have this unwavering certainty that they argue against theist. Thats the belief, it's that they cannot be wrong and they know it, and in most cases they don't even seen they are doing it.
The famous analogy is: "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby".
But really, why would large group of people promote "not collecting stamps" with such passion. Like lets get together and have a meeting about lacking belief in something.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Well, I see what you are getting at and Bobbob argued in the same direction before. I don't see myself as an antitheist but rather an "anti theocratist" and an "anti religious apologist". And of course I am very much "anti religiousnuttersdenyingscience" or anti any other religious agenda that defies common sense.
I am not "anti belief", though, FFS if I were I wouldn't have married a catholic woman in a catholic church (by a priest who was later prosecuted and jailed because he was downloading childporn on the church's computer, and afterwards did similar things AGAIN, lol).
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Ok. Good. Agree. Separation of church and state, always. But, it sounds like you had a bad experience if the priest that married you was diddling little boys. Really bad, so I can appreciate it leaving a bad taste. But I've said it before, Orthodox Christianity seems suited for you. Rabbis get married so the Greeks were like, hell yeah (pardon the pun). Married. Normal sexual relations. Kids. Grandkids. I say grab the Mrs. and go down the road or whatever to the nearest Orthodox church and renew your vows. Warning, any sexual scandals in the Greek church are usually limited to adult women so if your wife is pretty maybe keep her close, eh? ;-) If the priest tries to run off with her you don't want to be left behind comforting his crying wife.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"But, it sounds like you had a bad experience if the priest that married you was diddling little boys."
What are you on about? I did not say that, nor is there any proof of that (google "dean of reading peadophile" if you must). I was an atheist way before that, there was (were) no "incident(s)" that made me "lose faith".
Why would any religous sect (or sub sect) be "suitable" for me? Your reply is weirder than usual.
Coming back to my original question to you:
What I really don't get is why some believers are so extremely desperate to make atheism "a faith", I have my suspicions, but maybe, as you clearly are one of them, you can shed a light on that?
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
First and foremost, sorry. I only meant it in jest. However to many of us, your priest owning childporn equals being a pedophile. The production of such material is never victimless. Point. And your statement indicated that this ever brief interaction you had with a Catholic cleric at your marriage was obviously tainted by what was learned about him subsequently. One bad apple and all that. Anyway. Moving on.
I think your discussion with backdraft above and his stamp collection analogy summed it up nicely. When you become adamant that it's all bs, that there's nothing, that it's all a cosmic joke, you cross the border from conviction into faith itself.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"When you become adamant that it's all bs, that there's nothing, that it's all a cosmic joke, you cross the border from conviction into faith itself."
No you don't. Until there is a hint of evidence presented to me, I will treat it excactly like the simulation hypothesis.
I think because the belief is spoonfed to many forcefully from very young age believers think this is the default position, when in fact it isn't as we were all born atheists.
It is by no means a joke, though, some (sub) sects have to be taken very seriously and not for the good they are doing.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
We're all the product of our parentage and childhood experiences to a degree. To suggest Dawkins wasn't aided on the journey to his 'epiphany' after being touched inappropriately by an adult in charge at an all boys religious school he attended would be equally hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Maybe but not necessarily. Plenty catholic kids were abused and remained "believers".
It looks like you like to see believing as the "default setting", which it isn't. Most are taught on a daily basis from very young what to believe, if they weren't there wouldn't be as many believers these days. This is especially true in the western world for north america (although numbers of believers are rapidly declining) where not being religious still is a stigma (i.e. an atheist would not stand a chance to be nominated for any important political position), in Europe religious belief is way less important especially in young adults.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
"Maybe but not necessarily. Plenty catholic kids were abused and remained "believers"."
Sure, it's just your lord and saviour Dawkins that went the extra mile and took this up as his particular crusade (sorry, couldn't find a better word). It's not like he keeps his opinions to himself either, right? (And I think he got in trouble lately for making light of child sexual abuse).
I don't see believing as the default setting. Were this the case, it wouldn't be an act of faith. Faith takes an effort and a committment on the part of most believers. It's just from your POV that it seems to be easy or a cop-out.
I don't know that macron, johnson, trudeau campaigned on their religiousness. macron coming from a country that prides itself on its secularism certainly didn't. Even in Greece we have a clean separation of church and state. One of our former PMs is jewish, so.. And as for Trump, a well-known atheist putting on a show for his demographic (talking about his bible-walk), well, most folks know it was just that. I'm sure you can still be President of Argentina one day, which I'm told has a German demographic. I say go for it.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
What is it with you and dawkins? I do not believe I (in contrary to you) ever mentioned him in one of our conversations.
I thought you live in canada.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
I assumed you were a fan having given about as much thought to it as he obviously has.
I do live in Canada though I retain voting rights at the old place too. You're saying we should look out for you on the EU parliamentary ballot then?
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
OK, you wrote "in greece WE have" so I got confused.
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Dude (Old Spike)
Our universe is a simulation in a cristal, i used to live outside of it before i created the planets and stars, i came from THE reality, where random exists, though the ppl look exactly the same, we were 4 scientists working on the project, i lost my wife and decided to go in, it was restarted for me to create, for them to steer and moderate, so i am not god, just the creator, according to us outside god did not exist, or there was no proof.
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Needless_Kane (Old Spike)
How's CERN these days? what matter of Particles / anti matter, or rainbow universes have you discovered? We appear to have collided, with a rainbow universe now - has there been any evidence in CERN of such other then the obvious pride movements?
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Needless_Kane (Old Spike)
We are living in Facebook's Metaverse, which has been challenged by Microsoft's Dataverse, all viewed through hololens and Google AR/VR and Oculus in the background, with Amazon and Tesla vying for their stake somehow in this simulated Truman show.
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Dude (Old Spike)
You forget the aliens that created Our body's
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sal9000 (Old Spike)
did that bitch just say were living in a simulation because of an experience she had while playing poker?
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hellyeah (Old Spike)
lets test her experience, if you dont have an apifiny dont worry its a fucking great song
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
That was damn enjoyable. So what's the take on it. Little girl becomes aware of her (and everyone's) mortality but goes on to have a relatively healthy normal life as a functional member of society or something.?
Comments
(Old Spike)
No. we are living in our own reflection
(Old Spike)
(Old Spike)
Can't be answered.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Thats not how science works
(Old Spike)
"Science is but an organized system of ignorance".
(Site Administrator)
Exactly right backdraft. 'Nothing is inexplicable. It's only unexplained.' The Doctor (Tom Baker, Doctor Who. ;-)
(Old Spike)
So they did they have the answer? Why haven't we read about this anywhere then and need to listen to some guy's blog (which probably doesn't have a general scientific theme)?
I do admit I should have put "at this point in time" or "at the current standings of research", my bad.
Oh, and if you insist on an answer, here it is "we don't know"!
(Site Administrator)
From antitheist straight past atheist to agnostic with a single declaration. Careful you don't give yourself a nosebleed moving so fast.
(Old Spike)
lol, whenever belief comes into play you get oh so excited, don't ya.
People have been thinking about this for ages, there was an interesting discussion forum (posted on the old spiked a few years back I think) hosted by NDGT on the topic.
All of the participants had a scientific background, I think, none of them (even those that strongly supported the idea) came even close to an answer.
So to dumb it down for the theist:
At the moment the answer to the question "Are we living in a simulation?" (Same as to "is there a god") is "we don't know". Some feel they have a reason to believe this is the case, however there is (currently) no proof for it whatsoever.
(Site Administrator)
Agree with most everything you said except the bit where the atheist (another faith, basically) thinks he's dumbing things down for anyone.
(Old Spike)
Well, if people still think that atheism is a "faith" I actually and quite obviously have not succeeded dumbing things down enough for them!
So here goes once again:
One cannot "believe in a negative" (similar to one cannot prove a negative). The absence of a belief is not "a belief".
It would be like saying a "non smoker" is actually "a smoker" just because there the word "smoker" appears in the term.
What I really don't get is why some believers are so extremely desperate to make atheism "a faith", I have my suspicions, but maybe, as you clearly are one of them, you can shed a light on that?
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
This might come down to people miss labeling themselves (atheist vs antitheist), but if you take your typical "hard core" atheist, they usually have this unwavering certainty that they argue against theist. Thats the belief, it's that they cannot be wrong and they know it, and in most cases they don't even seen they are doing it.
The famous analogy is: "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby".
But really, why would large group of people promote "not collecting stamps" with such passion. Like lets get together and have a meeting about lacking belief in something.
(Old Spike)
Well, I see what you are getting at and Bobbob argued in the same direction before. I don't see myself as an antitheist but rather an "anti theocratist" and an "anti religious apologist". And of course I am very much "anti religiousnuttersdenyingscience" or anti any other religious agenda that defies common sense.
I am not "anti belief", though, FFS if I were I wouldn't have married a catholic woman in a catholic church (by a priest who was later prosecuted and jailed because he was downloading childporn on the church's computer, and afterwards did similar things AGAIN, lol).
(Site Administrator)
Ok. Good. Agree. Separation of church and state, always. But, it sounds like you had a bad experience if the priest that married you was diddling little boys. Really bad, so I can appreciate it leaving a bad taste. But I've said it before, Orthodox Christianity seems suited for you. Rabbis get married so the Greeks were like, hell yeah (pardon the pun). Married. Normal sexual relations. Kids. Grandkids. I say grab the Mrs. and go down the road or whatever to the nearest Orthodox church and renew your vows. Warning, any sexual scandals in the Greek church are usually limited to adult women so if your wife is pretty maybe keep her close, eh? ;-) If the priest tries to run off with her you don't want to be left behind comforting his crying wife.
(Old Spike)
"But, it sounds like you had a bad experience if the priest that married you was diddling little boys."
What are you on about? I did not say that, nor is there any proof of that (google "dean of reading peadophile" if you must). I was an atheist way before that, there was (were) no "incident(s)" that made me "lose faith".
Why would any religous sect (or sub sect) be "suitable" for me? Your reply is weirder than usual.
Coming back to my original question to you:
What I really don't get is why some believers are so extremely desperate to make atheism "a faith", I have my suspicions, but maybe, as you clearly are one of them, you can shed a light on that?
(Site Administrator)
First and foremost, sorry. I only meant it in jest. However to many of us, your priest owning childporn equals being a pedophile. The production of such material is never victimless. Point. And your statement indicated that this ever brief interaction you had with a Catholic cleric at your marriage was obviously tainted by what was learned about him subsequently. One bad apple and all that. Anyway. Moving on.
I think your discussion with backdraft above and his stamp collection analogy summed it up nicely. When you become adamant that it's all bs, that there's nothing, that it's all a cosmic joke, you cross the border from conviction into faith itself.
(Old Spike)
"When you become adamant that it's all bs, that there's nothing, that it's all a cosmic joke, you cross the border from conviction into faith itself."
No you don't. Until there is a hint of evidence presented to me, I will treat it excactly like the simulation hypothesis.
I think because the belief is spoonfed to many forcefully from very young age believers think this is the default position, when in fact it isn't as we were all born atheists.
It is by no means a joke, though, some (sub) sects have to be taken very seriously and not for the good they are doing.
(Site Administrator)
We're all the product of our parentage and childhood experiences to a degree. To suggest Dawkins wasn't aided on the journey to his 'epiphany' after being touched inappropriately by an adult in charge at an all boys religious school he attended would be equally hypocritical, wouldn't you say?
(Old Spike)
Maybe but not necessarily. Plenty catholic kids were abused and remained "believers".
It looks like you like to see believing as the "default setting", which it isn't. Most are taught on a daily basis from very young what to believe, if they weren't there wouldn't be as many believers these days. This is especially true in the western world for north america (although numbers of believers are rapidly declining) where not being religious still is a stigma (i.e. an atheist would not stand a chance to be nominated for any important political position), in Europe religious belief is way less important especially in young adults.
(Site Administrator)
"Maybe but not necessarily. Plenty catholic kids were abused and remained "believers"."
Sure, it's just your lord and saviour Dawkins that went the extra mile and took this up as his particular crusade (sorry, couldn't find a better word). It's not like he keeps his opinions to himself either, right? (And I think he got in trouble lately for making light of child sexual abuse).
I don't see believing as the default setting. Were this the case, it wouldn't be an act of faith. Faith takes an effort and a committment on the part of most believers. It's just from your POV that it seems to be easy or a cop-out.
I don't know that macron, johnson, trudeau campaigned on their religiousness. macron coming from a country that prides itself on its secularism certainly didn't. Even in Greece we have a clean separation of church and state. One of our former PMs is jewish, so.. And as for Trump, a well-known atheist putting on a show for his demographic (talking about his bible-walk), well, most folks know it was just that. I'm sure you can still be President of Argentina one day, which I'm told has a German demographic. I say go for it.
(Old Spike)
What is it with you and dawkins? I do not believe I (in contrary to you) ever mentioned him in one of our conversations.
I thought you live in canada.
(Site Administrator)
I assumed you were a fan having given about as much thought to it as he obviously has.
I do live in Canada though I retain voting rights at the old place too. You're saying we should look out for you on the EU parliamentary ballot then?
(Old Spike)
OK, you wrote "in greece WE have" so I got confused.
(Old Spike)
Our universe is a simulation in a cristal, i used to live outside of it before i created the planets and stars, i came from THE reality, where random exists, though the ppl look exactly the same, we were 4 scientists working on the project, i lost my wife and decided to go in, it was restarted for me to create, for them to steer and moderate, so i am not god, just the creator, according to us outside god did not exist, or there was no proof.
(Old Spike)
How's CERN these days? what matter of Particles / anti matter, or rainbow universes have you discovered? We appear to have collided, with a rainbow universe now - has there been any evidence in CERN of such other then the obvious pride movements?
(Old Spike)
We are living in Facebook's Metaverse, which has been challenged by Microsoft's Dataverse, all viewed through hololens and Google AR/VR and Oculus in the background, with Amazon and Tesla vying for their stake somehow in this simulated Truman show.
(Old Spike)
You forget the aliens that created Our body's
(Old Spike)
did that bitch just say were living in a simulation because of an experience she had while playing poker?
(Old Spike)
lets test her experience, if you dont have an apifiny dont worry its a fucking great song
(Site Administrator)
That was damn enjoyable. So what's the take on it. Little girl becomes aware of her (and everyone's) mortality but goes on to have a relatively healthy normal life as a functional member of society or something.?