When one NATO ally threatens another. Using Putin's Russia/cleptocracy as a template, Erdogan's Turkey now readies for war against Greece, under the banner of Ottoman revisionism.
Watch US senator Bob Menendez outline his case just yesterday 19Dec2022. No F16-upgrades or F35s for Turkey til they behave,..nice. But as I've said before, with Erdogan having free reign and most of his opponens now in jail, when Turkey decides to attack, I suspect little Greece will stand alone..
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(Site Administrator)
The part he left out: Turkey is reacting to the Greek military build-up on the Aegean islands. Of course there are congress critters condemning Turkey's reaction & telling half-truths about it since it goes against American arms sales. They're not withholding those arms to Turkey over the Greece issue either, they're doing that due to Turkish purchase of Russian arms (formally)... possibly they're unhappy with Turkey for other reasons too, since Turkey has a relatively independent foreign policy (unacceptable to the yanks).
No idea why you're dragging "Putin's Russia/cleptocracy" into this issue when the American & Greek kleptocracies are the ones which are relavant here.
(Site Administrator)
Thanks for sharing your perspective. It's clear there are larger dynamics at play. As for: 'The part he left out: Turkey is reacting to the Greek military build-up on the Aegean islands..' surely you appreciate the simple philosophy that 'if it is threatened, it is defended.' I mean, if your friendly NATO ally just to the East of you has troops, naval and air force stationed on their western border to..defend against what..Europe?..you'd best protect yourself. Trust me Dan, Greece is still recovering from its financial woes. We'd rather not have to outrank the US in military spending per capita. But with a wolf at Europe's door (Greece is the door) what can you do, eh?
(Site Administrator)
"defend against what..Europe?"
um... afaik, from Turkey's perspective they don't want to have their cities threatened by islands just off their coast & also the militarization of the islands goes against previous deals/norms. I'm not overly familiar with the whole affair but it's not some simple thing. It has a real history to it, one with antagonisms from both sides. You could just as easily apply that "defend against what..NATO?" to question why is Greece militarizing the islands next to Turkey, especially considering they don't really have the capacity to defend against Turkey in an all-out war.
Which would you prefer - a state installing weapons systems right next to your coastline (in contrast to what was previously agreed) or some bluster from their capital?
if you want some more Turkey perspective, have a read of this https://www.trtworld.com/europe/explained-greek-militarisation-of-eastern-aegean-islands-in-5-questions-58205
When you have American arms manufacturers going to bat for you (via congress critters) that's the time you should be double-checking wtf is going on imo. They want to heat things up. It's good for business. They're making bank from their Ukraine ops, for instance.
(Site Administrator)
Think about what you just said. Is Erdogan's Turkey more likely to have to defend itself against European/Greek agression? Against international maritime law and the legitimate division of economic zones, more likely. I don't expect you to understand but Greeks have centuries of experience being encroached on. I know a lot more about the Turkish pov than you might think. From their religious right's perspective they are only fighting to take back the lands they were cast out of..even if it was by the original occupants. It's that whole spread of Islam thing, which we've said is just as much political doctrine than it is about religion. It really is interesting if you look objectively. This is the frontier where Eastern and Western ideals have clashed for 6 eons.. And now that natural gas deposits are at stake, well..
Danman, thanks for the link, but with Erdogan having put the country's legitimate media behind bars, why would I want to consume state-run revisionist propaganda. That's your deal. But feel free to ask me any questions if you'd like to know the other side. Appreciate talking with ya.
(Site Administrator)
You say you know a lot about the Turk position but you mischaracterize it at every turn, including this post with a corrupt neocon hawk talking a bunch of shit in the US govt on behalf of his weapons-making sponsors.
"[bleh blah blah] That's your deal"
Go fuck yourself. That page is the Turk position & it cites a bunch of agreements previously made with Greece which Greece is failing to honour. You can choose to live in your cartoonish world of comic book villains & ignore the legal agreements if you like. Bob Menendez has your back, so long as he makes it through this 2nd round of investigations for corruption & bribery (of course he will). Good luck.
(Site Administrator)
Firstly, regarding where you say 'Go fuck yourself' above, what kind of talk is that...sorry, I didn't mean to irritate you..
between your legs..
where your vagina is.
Now if you want to talk facts:
The concession of these islands to Greece was done through international treaties. It is not something that occurred yesterday. The Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923 and the islands remained in Greece. The Dodecanese belonged to Italy and when Italy lost the war after the Second World War, in the Treaty of Paris these islands passed over to Greece. Turkey did not object to this, nor was there any legal ground for such a thing. That is why Turkey did not even feel the need to send a delegation to Paris (a matter of historical record).
As regards th Treaty of Lausanne, Article 13 limits Greece from having naval bases on 4 islands - Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria. Greece does not have naval bases on any of these 4 islands. They don't need to because Crete (that long horizontal island making up Greece's southern border) is the world's largest and unsinkable aircraft carrier. Basically, the invaders are sad they didn't get the lot years ago, and this is why they threaten a fellow NATO ally with a case for war. Or is there some mongol heritage there preventing you from appreciating the facts.
Greece is an archipelago state. You don't discount your islands under international law. Period.
(Site Administrator)
firstly, go fuck yourself, again. If you wonder why I'm reacting that way it's because you started the personal shit with your childish reaction to the trtworld link I provided.
secondly, you're full of shit, just like Menendez, spinning bullshit based on half-truths.
this is a complicated issue with a long history & it does nobody any favours when you mischaracterize it with your one-sided panicky bollocks.
example of your mischaracterization.....
what you said: "Article 13 limits Greece from having naval bases..."
what the treaty says (see below): "No naval bases and no fortification will be established in the said islands"
an honest reading of the treaty shows that the nature of the military presense on the islands is not to be for gearing up for war with Turkey, which was you've been advocating for by making vague excuses eg. "you'd best protect yourself" etc.
The militarization of these islands is what Turkey is reacting to, as I said from the start. They have a point. Greece is militarizing the islands beyond their obliged restrictions & this is why Turkey is being flippant about what they can do with their Typhoon missiles. Scared? that was the point of what they said. All Greece can do is keep buying super expensive weapons from Uncle Sam and hope they come through when the time comes, unlike what they're doing with the Kurds. Again. It's either that or honour their obligations & keep the peace with the Turks. Figure something out about that black money trade post you call Cyprus. Good luck.
Greece can come to terms with Turkey to stabilize the situation or they can keep trying to up the ante & see what happens. I don't really care either way, tbh an inter-NATO conflict would be a blessing for the world. NATO = Nuclear Armed Terrorists Organization. Greece & Turkey can have at it. Just be honest about the situation or I'll get cranky :p
And finally, fuck Bob Menendez.
(Site Administrator)
Skipping that first sentence as one of us has to be classy. If you want me to read your TRT link (see my comment below) maybe also provide one from reputable Turkish journalists..oh wait, Erdowanker locked them all in jail, along with the university professors and his top military brass (post the 2016 coups). You're promoting state-run media like it's valid cause that's all you consume. Pathetic.
Here's an exercise. Hey remember that time Russia asked Ukraine for the nukes back on the promise they would never attack,.. got them and then attacked under Putler? Or is that too long ago for ya.. As long as Turkey threatens war then Greece will exercise it's right to defend. Point.
I chuckled when you wrote above 'Greece can come to terms with Turkey to stabilize the situation.' Like a deal? What does Erdowanker give up other than the threat of war. Maybe you propose a landswap? Maybe Turkey could pull back behind the Bosporus, you know, just get out of continental Europe altogether. 'Make Istanbul Constantinople again.' Best for everyone if our ideals are so incompatible, right? What do you say.. chum/p. Thanks for keeping it civil.
And lastly in conclusion..
(Site Administrator)
too much garbage to read. You're an intellectual ant, bobbob. And a religious nutjob. Go fuck yourself.
(Site Administrator)
Yeah but you read it anyway. Now go and print this page and send it off to your handlers. Be sure to let us know how many points you get. You didn't aquit yourself very well, so probably not too many.
(Site Administrator)
(Site Administrator)
Read in Washington Post: 'By now, many Americans are aware that the RT international television network is a propaganda arm of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s regime. They might be less familiar with TRT World, an English-language international television network that is a propaganda arm of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s regime.'
Link here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/12/how-us-can-send-message-erdogan-free-press/
(Site Administrator)
you two :P
(Site Administrator)
I know, right? I plum tired him out. Does that mean I win? Lols. Still a good man, though.