Gorbachev died. His legacy? Russia's GDP dropped by 40%. Real wages halved. Poverty ballooned from 2.2 million in 1987-88 to 66 million in 1993-95. Millions died under the brutal regime of privatization and shock therapy. Half a million women were trafficked into sexual slavery.
(3 votes)
Comments
(Site Administrator)
(Site Administrator)
Wow so communists and dictators didn't like him, eh. And let's be fair that people suffered severe austerity after glasnost. But let us not speak ill of the dead, let alone on their death day.
That above austerity noted, people lived. Mothers got to keep their sons. Wives their husbands. Children their fathers. Instead of losing them in the bloody war between East and West had that wall in Germany come down any other way. All because he was willing to sacrifice his political future to do the right thing. God rest him.
(Site Administrator)
that's a false dichotemy - it wasn't a choice between economic ruin & nuclear war.
China managed to implement free market reforms without being sucked into privatizing everything for pennies on the ruble. There was social & political disturbance there too, culminating in the 1989 shitfest mainly in Beijing, but it was contained. Gorbachev was too idealistic & was a sucker for trusting the west. His naivety paved the way for a lot of shit, including NATO's expansion which we're still experiencing the fallout from today.
It's not a case of "liking" the guy, or anything to do with communism or "dictators". He was foolish & clumsy in what he did & as a leader imo & I think it's right to judge him for what he achieved. He was too nice, too gullible & caused Russia a lot of problems. I don't like or dislike him & probably Deng thought he was a nice guy. Doesn't mean he was smart tho. I'll let the western press fawn over him & tell everyone how wonderful he was.
(Site Administrator)
Why nuclear when conventional warfare would do. Still a good man though.
(Site Administrator)
>Why nuclear
because that's what a war between East & West entails.
Whether he was a "good man" or something else depends on which angle you're looking at him from.
For the west & even some liberals in the East he was great, he did a lot to destroy Russia, allowing NATO to take over Europe & for the US to go a long way in implementing their global dictatorship / Wolfowitz Doctrine. Now they're trying to surround Russia & China with missiles & we're still on the verge of armageddon as we were at the height of the cold war. So what "good" did Gorbachev's capitulation really achieve in the end besides proving the west has an unlimited desire for power & can't really be trusted.
(Site Administrator)
I mean come on.. really?
(Site Administrator)
dunno what you mean
(Site Administrator)
I simply meant if we're gonna mention the bad along with the good of both systems. And then I broke out into a rendition of 'I'm so ronery'.
(Site Administrator)
oh ok... I dunno how to respond since I was talking about Gorby (and then somehow nuclear war?) but you wanna compare 2 systems.
Just to re-cap: a man died, he was the last leader of the Soviet Union & plunged the country into a huge mess by bungling free market reforms & democratization. He got good press in the west tho. And a Nobel prize. Russians aren't exactly in deep sorrow about his passing, their govt's still dealing with the mess he & Yeltsin made.
(Site Administrator)
You got your fingers on the pulse of Russian society by watching their state run media, eh. Like you never heard a politician cry scorched earth. Way to go.
(Site Administrator)
that stuff that's been blocked across the western internet space?
nope.
dunno what the 2nd 2 sentences mean. Ellaborating on a false premise ig, a failed attempt at ad hom.
Seems to me you're making pretty hollow arguments & don't really know anything about Gorbachev but you wanna argue anyway. If you find criticism of the guy within days of his passing distasteful that's fine I get it. Since he's in the media rn (being spun as some liberator) I'm gonna have my little 2c about him. He caused a lot of problems for Russia but we're programmed to think he was great..... ever wonder why that is?
(Old Spike)
Because it is the way it is
(Site Moderator)
Was the end of the cold war really a bad thing? Guess so if your rooting for a new one.
(Site Administrator)
nice straw man.
the description of this post so you can't ignore it on purpose:
(Old Spike)
Yes and we don't believe you.
You blame the president for crime like sexual slavery, so what you are saying the president facillitated that?
The mafia operates on opportunity. Maybe he cut the drugs...
*Poverty can be explained by economic problem of growth of others, you are poor when you are below a certain level, if all your friends win the lottery, you instantly become the poor guy.
GDP dropped because the world around russia growd fast, that were the golden ages, of the 80's 90's (see analogy* of poverty above but on a international scale)
you where not born yet, or lived in a civilized country so you would not know what the golden ages were.
But it is good that you now recognise that Russia has economic problems, now admit the problems in China and you could turn from wooden to a real boy. A boy you can be proud of.
(Site Moderator)
And that little thing that happened during his watch....the collapse of the Soviet Union might have brought some turmoil to the nation. When a 70 year old institution falls apart it's going to cause a lot of shit. Transitions are hard.
(Site Administrator)
Hard times follow good times, often as a rule. And those were very good times for a while. Some might say unjustifiably good but I'm by no means qualified to offer an opinion of the geo-politics behind the situation as a mere casual observer. Besides, we Canadians got our own problems here, locally to deal with.
Still, getting McDonads for 32yrs must've been nice. Thanks to Gorbie.
(Site Administrator)
I'll repeat once more to give you both another chance at comprehending some basic facts:
(Site Administrator)
Was rinse repeat. You're doing nothing to advance your argument. A cynic would simply refer to the above as a burst bubble. A market correction. Oligarchs have been known to send a little cash in the direction of the average citizenry as long as they look the other way on the other stuff.
(Old Spike)
we call him Gorbatsjov, but whatever, world was safer back then, When you are drafted to fight China or Russia you will be in the opposite world, then the one you want to be, or you think New Zealand will join China?
(Site Administrator)
NZ can just do what Belgium did in WWII - surrender within 2 weeks
(Old Spike)
Serious what are you going to do?
WW2 germans broke trough after months of lying in the trenches, then they used mustard gas, the first time they used chemical warfare in history and this killed alot of ppl, so get your facts straight clownish kiwi, seriously what are you going to do? you gonna crap out? be a traitor?