"By admitting that we don't know, we might have found the open channel. Thats the key to science".
This. It's too easy to close off that channel by claiming you do know. Progress, and exploration stops there.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"Progress, and exploration stops there."
Exactly, this is why many "religions" are simply not compatible with science.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Don't think it's due to religion but the person interpreting.
God did it - vs - I want to figure out how god did it.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Yes "religion" was the wrong word, sects or subsects would have been better.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Look at you. I can't leave you two alone for one minute. Seriously though, happy to see Backdraft is getting through to you using logic and patience. Next you'll be saying some religious people haven't wasted their entire lives. Upvotes to both of you, especially BD's statement on how faith doesn't obliterate the desire for scientific understanding.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
I do not believe I have ever said anything to the contrary, I will have to correct your statement, though: ...faith doesn't NECESSARILY obliterate the desire for scientific understanding.
"Next you'll be saying some religious people haven't wasted their entire lives."
I don't think I ever said anyhing even remotely like this neither.
Some people collect stamps, some are trainspotters, others go to church, as long as I am not affected by their passtime I don't care AT ALL.
BUT, if (a group of) people want schools to teach creationism as equally valid a theory as evolution or these people think they have a "superior" morality then me or these people want to class me as simply "following another religion" etc. etc. I am affected by it so don't expect me to shut up.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Your downvote only raises my self-esteem, haha. Busy now but look forward to replying in more detail later.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Downvote wasn't mine, I'll give you a plus 1 on both your most recent comments (although, they don't really deserve them) so you don't get your panties in a bunch.... check the points log if you don't believe me.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Thanks man! Though I'm not quite sure who points are more important to given I've only heard of the points log and seen it weaponized (poorly).. though I've never accessed it myself. It was just an observation.
Lol'd when you wrote:
"I do not believe I have ever said anything to the contrary, I will have to correct your statement, though:
...faith doesn't NECESSARILY obliterate the desire for scientific understanding. "
THERE,...Right there. You're doing it again. I'd say it's unconscious but we both know you must put at least a little effort into being so clever. ;-)
Perhaps you saw that bit I wrote about secularism and having had a Jewish PM in Greece's modern history. It's sounding like a better and better fit all the time. Let me know if you want me to sponsor you. Peloponnese for you. Rolling hills. Countryside. Plenty of space for running the dogs.
But let's not lock horns on your childish belief that we'd have good without God. Especially if you live in a European nation who's modern constitution is founded on Judeo-Christian principles. We've had that discussion before. And you show your own 'faith' by believing this wisdom is miraculously inherent among all mankind. Our 'default setting' if you will. ..Hey, at least you know I'm paying attention when we talk, right? Thanks.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"But let's not lock horns on your childish belief that we'd have good without God."
This is why there is no reasonable conversation possible on the topic with "believers" like you.
For your type there is no way you could be wrong (this is probably why you so happily entertain the simulation hypothesis, as at least there would be some sort of superior power), you probably don't realise it but you actually consider yourself being a "knower". There is no way you would even think about your belief being bogus.
So here is the question (you so desperately avoided last time I asked): If today you would find undeniable proof that your belief is "wrong" and actually the taliban muslims are "correct", would you change your ethical values to adapt to them?
This is a simple "yes" or "no" question which would need some additional reasoning if the answer is "no", if you can't do that you might as well not bother but at least you will know that you're a "knower" and not a believer.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Paragraph 1. Yes.
Paragraph 2. I don't entertain the simulation hypothesis. I merely allow it / use it as a bridge to mutual understanding. You say there's a computer running a simulation on intergalactic space daddy's computer in his office (holy shit! On the wall! I have the same Marilyn Monroe midnight sessions photo hanging in my office!) and I say existence/everything can just as easily be the result of the brilliance/light/wisdom of God's eternal mind. ie. He thought us into existence. Liked the part where you call me 'knower' like you have any less faith(belief in nothingness) than I have in God.
Paragraph 3. Answering your question. Would I dump what I believe for the prophecy of a 7th century warlord, caravan robbing, murdering, war-bride raping, child-bride taking,.. guy? I'll join you in atheism church. We can sing the secular version of 'cumbaya my randomly created self cumbaya' and talk about our 'innate niceness' or whatever as you put it. Neither of which is likely to manifest itself just like that undeniable proof you keep talking about. I told you before, cut Him out of history, refer to him simply as 'Jesus the man, not the god' and you're still left with the problem of a giant Jesus-shaped whole in the western society/reality you currently inhabit. Even Buddhists acknowledged Him. But, His influence is undeniably a problem (for you). When you decide to join the Taliban in their shithole countries (ha! they said Trump couldn't turn a phrase) cause the incense, church bells, kids singing Christmas carols finally gets to you, let me send you money for the cab fare to the airport, okay?
And since you're interested in my motivation let me share it with you. We have it good. We have it reaaaally good compared to some. Maybe a little more gratitude and a bit less hypocrisy might be nice, non?
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"You say....." nope, I don't.
So, as I suspected you consider yourself a "knower". Sad.
If I remember correctly jesus healed the blind and the limp according to the bible and turned water into wine, correct?
And of course you wonder why people are sceptical about your heroe?
Lastly, and that really is hillarious, you actually contradict yourself! You would rather become an atheist than a fundamentalist muslim. This clearly shows that no god of yours would be necessary to make you (and thus anybody else) "good".
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Seriously? You absolutely be daft if you're going to deliberately twist and misrepresent what I said. I said I enjoyed (as in inhaled a little forcibly through the nose) YOUR use of the term 'knower'. It grates you that some people have this part of their life, their spiritual side somewhat sorted. If you look above, I even indicate that you're apparently a 'knower' too. Anyway, you've made it really clear that the atheist's bashing of religion is a coping mechanism. Putting out feelers and making sure folks are as insecure as you. Truly sad.
I'll back off now since this is your thread and you should enjoy it. I mean, you were hoping for everyone to agree with you when you posted it, I'm sure ;-) ...But if you coud please stop bashing the turning of water into wine. Even skeptics agree this was arguably His best party trick. I mean what, you don't like open bar?
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"..."you were hoping for everyone to agree with you when you posted it..."
Not really, although everyone except "knowers" should.
"party trick", yeah like stuffing a pair of all animals into a boat (and forgetting the dinosaurs).
Comments
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"By admitting that we don't know, we might have found the open channel. Thats the key to science".
This. It's too easy to close off that channel by claiming you do know. Progress, and exploration stops there.
(Old Spike)
"Progress, and exploration stops there."
Exactly, this is why many "religions" are simply not compatible with science.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Don't think it's due to religion but the person interpreting.
God did it - vs - I want to figure out how god did it.
(Old Spike)
Yes "religion" was the wrong word, sects or subsects would have been better.
(Site Administrator)
Look at you. I can't leave you two alone for one minute. Seriously though, happy to see Backdraft is getting through to you using logic and patience. Next you'll be saying some religious people haven't wasted their entire lives. Upvotes to both of you, especially BD's statement on how faith doesn't obliterate the desire for scientific understanding.
(Old Spike)
I do not believe I have ever said anything to the contrary, I will have to correct your statement, though:
...faith doesn't NECESSARILY obliterate the desire for scientific understanding.
"Next you'll be saying some religious people haven't wasted their entire lives."
I don't think I ever said anyhing even remotely like this neither.
Some people collect stamps, some are trainspotters, others go to church, as long as I am not affected by their passtime I don't care AT ALL.
BUT, if (a group of) people want schools to teach creationism as equally valid a theory as evolution or these people think they have a "superior" morality then me or these people want to class me as simply "following another religion" etc. etc. I am affected by it so don't expect me to shut up.
(Site Administrator)
Your downvote only raises my self-esteem, haha. Busy now but look forward to replying in more detail later.
(Old Spike)
Downvote wasn't mine, I'll give you a plus 1 on both your most recent comments (although, they don't really deserve them) so you don't get your panties in a bunch.... check the points log if you don't believe me.
(Site Administrator)
Thanks man! Though I'm not quite sure who points are more important to given I've only heard of the points log and seen it weaponized (poorly).. though I've never accessed it myself. It was just an observation.
Lol'd when you wrote:
"I do not believe I have ever said anything to the contrary, I will have to correct your statement, though:
...faith doesn't NECESSARILY obliterate the desire for scientific understanding. "
THERE,...Right there. You're doing it again. I'd say it's unconscious but we both know you must put at least a little effort into being so clever. ;-)
Perhaps you saw that bit I wrote about secularism and having had a Jewish PM in Greece's modern history. It's sounding like a better and better fit all the time. Let me know if you want me to sponsor you. Peloponnese for you. Rolling hills. Countryside. Plenty of space for running the dogs.
But let's not lock horns on your childish belief that we'd have good without God. Especially if you live in a European nation who's modern constitution is founded on Judeo-Christian principles. We've had that discussion before. And you show your own 'faith' by believing this wisdom is miraculously inherent among all mankind. Our 'default setting' if you will. ..Hey, at least you know I'm paying attention when we talk, right? Thanks.
(Old Spike)
"But let's not lock horns on your childish belief that we'd have good without God."
This is why there is no reasonable conversation possible on the topic with "believers" like you.
For your type there is no way you could be wrong (this is probably why you so happily entertain the simulation hypothesis, as at least there would be some sort of superior power), you probably don't realise it but you actually consider yourself being a "knower". There is no way you would even think about your belief being bogus.
So here is the question (you so desperately avoided last time I asked): If today you would find undeniable proof that your belief is "wrong" and actually the taliban muslims are "correct", would you change your ethical values to adapt to them?
This is a simple "yes" or "no" question which would need some additional reasoning if the answer is "no", if you can't do that you might as well not bother but at least you will know that you're a "knower" and not a believer.
(Site Administrator)
Paragraph 1. Yes.
Paragraph 2. I don't entertain the simulation hypothesis. I merely allow it / use it as a bridge to mutual understanding. You say there's a computer running a simulation on intergalactic space daddy's computer in his office (holy shit! On the wall! I have the same Marilyn Monroe midnight sessions photo hanging in my office!) and I say existence/everything can just as easily be the result of the brilliance/light/wisdom of God's eternal mind. ie. He thought us into existence. Liked the part where you call me 'knower' like you have any less faith(belief in nothingness) than I have in God.
Paragraph 3. Answering your question. Would I dump what I believe for the prophecy of a 7th century warlord, caravan robbing, murdering, war-bride raping, child-bride taking,.. guy? I'll join you in atheism church. We can sing the secular version of 'cumbaya my randomly created self cumbaya' and talk about our 'innate niceness' or whatever as you put it. Neither of which is likely to manifest itself just like that undeniable proof you keep talking about. I told you before, cut Him out of history, refer to him simply as 'Jesus the man, not the god' and you're still left with the problem of a giant Jesus-shaped whole in the western society/reality you currently inhabit. Even Buddhists acknowledged Him. But, His influence is undeniably a problem (for you). When you decide to join the Taliban in their shithole countries (ha! they said Trump couldn't turn a phrase) cause the incense, church bells, kids singing Christmas carols finally gets to you, let me send you money for the cab fare to the airport, okay?
And since you're interested in my motivation let me share it with you. We have it good. We have it reaaaally good compared to some. Maybe a little more gratitude and a bit less hypocrisy might be nice, non?
(Old Spike)
"You say....." nope, I don't.
So, as I suspected you consider yourself a "knower". Sad.
If I remember correctly jesus healed the blind and the limp according to the bible and turned water into wine, correct?
And of course you wonder why people are sceptical about your heroe?
Lastly, and that really is hillarious, you actually contradict yourself! You would rather become an atheist than a fundamentalist muslim. This clearly shows that no god of yours would be necessary to make you (and thus anybody else) "good".
(Site Administrator)
Seriously? You absolutely be daft if you're going to deliberately twist and misrepresent what I said. I said I enjoyed (as in inhaled a little forcibly through the nose) YOUR use of the term 'knower'. It grates you that some people have this part of their life, their spiritual side somewhat sorted. If you look above, I even indicate that you're apparently a 'knower' too. Anyway, you've made it really clear that the atheist's bashing of religion is a coping mechanism. Putting out feelers and making sure folks are as insecure as you. Truly sad.
I'll back off now since this is your thread and you should enjoy it. I mean, you were hoping for everyone to agree with you when you posted it, I'm sure ;-) ...But if you coud please stop bashing the turning of water into wine. Even skeptics agree this was arguably His best party trick. I mean what, you don't like open bar?
(Old Spike)
"..."you were hoping for everyone to agree with you when you posted it..."
Not really, although everyone except "knowers" should.
"party trick", yeah like stuffing a pair of all animals into a boat (and forgetting the dinosaurs).
Way to sweet talk what could be a grifter (or a Derren Brown ancestor).....
(Site Administrator)
You've taken to quoting people, out of context, a lot. It's like you're channeling someone.
2 replies there:
And..
(Old Spike)
no I didn't.
(Site Administrator)
well..you 'knower' best.
;-)
(Site Administrator)